WWII Tail markings

Spyderman_uk · 02-04-2008

I have just noticed in a model magazine an article about a ME 262 kit by Trumpeter.
On the rear fuselage just in front of the tail fin there are blue white and red bands pretty much like you see on most British aircraft from that period, but are usually on the tail fin.
I was always of the opinion that they were part of the British markings for military aircraft. It looks like that is not the case. I have never noticed them on any other aircraft before.

Does anyone know the significance of these markings please?

There were some B+W photos of a real ME 262 that had the markings in the write up.

Terry

**GEEDUBBYA** · 02-04-2008

Howdy Terry,

You had me curious to see what your were speaking of so......I went on a mission lol. I first went to google images and searched for trumpeter Me-262. I knew that I would not be able to see a photo containing the stripes in the small thumbnails they offer there, but i also knew that I could look for aftermarket decals for the bird.
Well, I found it I believe take a look below and see if the bird in question is one of these:

Now i saved this image to my computer and using my photo editing program "blew it up" as best as I could until the image blurred.
the bottom aircraft with the "purple" writing above it says:

1st line"Me-262A-1a
2nd line (something i cant make out) then Lt. Fritz Muller
3rd line "Prague spring 1945"
4th line & 5th lines "Currently restored and on display at the US national air and space museum"

So i went in search of this "fritz Muller" and found out he was one of 40 aces in the me-262, he had 6 kills, and a wartime total of 22 kills and flew with unit JG7.
Now all of that meant absolutely nothing to me, I was no closer to knowing what the bars were on the aircraft than I was when I read your question. So, I figured it must be part of a group or unit marking so i looked up "German me-262 unit jg7 and found out this:
"JG7. Due to chaotic situation at the end of the war it is hard to be exact, but its is believed that JG7 scored nearly 500 victories, JV44 about 50 and the NJG10/11 48 victories. Ref: Bernd Barbas, "Planes of the Luftwaffe Fighter Aces" claims that JG7 had 'close to 500 victories', JV44 'only about 50'. Jeffrey Ethell & Alfred Price, "World War II Fighting Jets". The Me262 in the fighter role 'caused the destruction of no more than 150 allied aircraft'. Osprey Aviation, "Aircraft of the Aces, German Jet Aces of World War II", lists 28 Aces (5 or more victories) with more than 228 victories for the Me262. William Green, "Warplanes of the Third Reich: states that JG7 'was to claim no fewer than 427 kills' and JV44 'some 50 kills'."
Again, this still doesnt answer your question...but, every photo i looked at of a Me-262 flown by unit JG-7 had the "bars" on them so I am guessing it was a unit marking of some sort, like the old photo below:

(aboce: this photo with others of Me-262 variants can be found here: Variants: Me 262A-1a note on the page the different units, but only the JG-7 aircraft have the "bars").

So, unless Barry chimes in and lets us both know what they were for, I am gonna stick with "unit markings" ....and yeah, thats my final answer.....no lifelines used

Have a good day,

Greg

ps: note also above on the "decal" sheet, you can just make out on each of those aircraft the unit JG-7 on each, none of the other decals i saw had the bars

tigertc · 02-04-2008

Well, you live and learn! I always thought the 262 was more of an experimental aircraft. I never realised that it had so many kills in ww2.

**GEEDUBBYA** · 02-04-2008

Howdy Terry and Terry lol,

Yes, I was unaware of the history of the 262 also prior to this little bit of research. Apparently, The germans had begun work on it as early as the fall of 1938 according to this particular site:

Axis History Factbook: Messerschmitt Me-262 Schwalbe / Sturmvogel

"
Even before this, in the fall of 1938, a Messerschmitt design team under Dr. Waldermar Voight had drawn up concepts for a interceptor fighter with twin turbojet engines. The preliminary designs for "Project 1065", as it was designated, went through a iteration or two and finally resulted in a proposal submitted to the RLM in May 1940.
Messerschmitt's dream fighter had the turbojets mounted in nacelles under the middle of the wings. The wings were slightly swept to ensure proper center of gravity, and had an unusually thin chord, or ratio of thickness to width, for good high-speed performance. As the wing's features for high-speed performance compromised low-speed handling, a "slat" was added to the front of the outer wings. The slat was automatically extended to improve handling at low speeds.
The fuselage had a triangular cross section and substantial fuel capacity to feed the thirsty engines. The aircraft was a "tailsitter", with fully retractable landing gear. In July 1940, the RLM ordered three prototypes, under the designation "Messerschmitt 262 (Me-262)", to be powered by BMW-003 engines..........First flight was on 18 April 1941".
There is alot of information on the above site about the history of the Me-262 and all the aircraft leading up to it that eventually was the 262. It also has the variants as well as the aircraft that the Me-262 became after the war, including the Nakajima J8N1 Kikka, (Japan had a disassembled 262 shipped to them via German U-boat late in the war and used it to create their own version. The Russians even built their own version of the 262, the Sukhoi Su-9 and Su-11.
But i am like you tiger, "live and learn".

have a good day,

Greg

tigertc · 02-04-2008

I now have myself a night of reading, Cheers Geedubya.

.

Pan_Am_Clipper_Girl · 02-04-2008

Ahh defence of the Reich bands. Correct they did change from unit to unit. My fave JG27 had a nice green band, often mis-coloured as a very turquiose shade, pity really as I quite like turquiose.
Personally I'm not too sure of Luftwaffe kill ratios. In the desert there are accounts of JG27 machines dowing Bostons or whatever yet there are no British records of that particular type of aircraft flying at that time. So take the amounts scored with a tiny pinch of salt and certainly during the final breakdown.

One final things on the bands. Anyone who does Luft 46 cheese think about what bands to put on...mainly we use proper Geschwader/theatre markings since we go on the theory if the Luftwaffe has in th words of the Mighty Hood "Those incredible Thunderbirds machines..." ooops sorry...those incredible machines were available and made in reasonable quantities the Third Reich wouldn't be in the dire position it found itself during '44-'45. For this reason a 262 in Desert scheme, hmmm wonder what the tiger stripe JG27 109E4 scheme would be like on a 262? *giggles* sorry my tiny brain is woking overtime, 262 in desert scheme could be well within a logical "story" as regards to unit/theatre markings.

Reich Defense

The Hikoki book on Luftwaffe colours and markings is a great reference and well worth the money.
Hope this helps.

Spyderman_uk · 02-04-2008

As usual Greg you are quick off the mark! Maybe I should just address all questions to you?

Just kidding.

It is amazing how one, what seems simple at the time, question leads things off on a tangent and gets everyone researching a different subject! Not complaining, just observing!

I remember reading a lot about the development of aircraft such as the me262 when doing my History project at school, many many years ago.
As implied in the articles listed above, a lot of research was wasted and/or delayed because of the politics between Hitler and his various Generals.
Hitler and/or his advisers made many mistakes in the execution of the Second World War. It would seem that Hitler himself was somewhat of a romantic and believed that fighting was a Gallant and Noble act and was better done face to face. Hence his reluctance to force home the German Military advantage at many fields of battle.

Anyway in the grand scale of things what the ME262 achieved in battle was minuscule, and as Perry stated, a lot of achievements should be taken with a big pinch of salt.

Keep the discussion going this is fascinating!

Terry

rjwood_uk · 02-04-2008

well you live and learn!!!

i didnt realise the 262 had that many kills either. amazing stuff greg! its amazing what a google search and a bit of spare time can get ya!

lovely stuff.

Richard

**wonwinglo** · 02-04-2008

If the Germans had the resources to metal technology that we have today in the closing stages of WW2 ,then the Me.262 would have been devastating in action,thankfully the engines rarely had a life of more than 5 operating hours before they literally blew up under the strain,I think the answers to those stripes has shown how we take these things for granted,well done Geedub for yet another observation that many would have simply missed.