duncan

Correct , he widnae waste guid Scotch on an Englishman....even when he wis deid ! So what progress Albion after these diversions, pen to paper yet or still mulling around in your head ? (Sorry mulling/rum, didnt mean that!)

Albion

Doing a bit of a rethink, I have sketched out a few plans for the ship's island structure and it looks like two people inside would be very very cramped (might need to be married). Decreasing the scale to 1/6 won't do much either, since it would only add a few inches.
I have a few plans and profile drawings of Victorious as she appeared after her refit in the 1950s, the island structure is broader and higher, perhaps double the volume of the war period Victorious. To build this model of Victorious would be a major shift from the version I wanted to build, but in no way a disappointment since the 1960s carrier was a very handsome ship.

MartinH-K

Would the two (or more) people actually have to be in the same part of the hull? Think REAL. The person in charge of the engines wouldn't go anywhere near the island... similarly whoever is handling deck operations.

Albion

Thanks for the comments MartinH-K, My original plan, and the one I hope to carry through, is to treat the model as if it were the full scale ship with regards to navigation and flight operations. Although not strictly necessary, I would like the island to have a small bridge with stations for a helmsman, OOD and navigation. As well as a Flight control area for an Air Boss, and Shooter(Cats). I had not thought that an engineer would be a desired position or necessary since the propulsion plant I envision is not that complex.
As far as the flight deck, I do not think it difficult to imagine operating a dozen or more aircraft from the model simultaneously, with flyer's tending their own planes, though to be sure I have no experience with this sort of thing (flying off carriers that is), or how any of it would actually work in practice. It would be a helpful at that stage if someone with experience in Carrier ops were available.
All said, I am continuing to work on detailed construction drawings for the island, and might even have something worth relating in a few days, either that or I will disappear for good under the wads of paper rabidly accumulating around me.

MartinH-K

Though I don't have experience in carrier based operations, having been a military air traffic controller in a previous life I know something about air operations in general that might help. Your carrier based controllers (r/c flyers) will need to know what patterns you are flying and be strictly controlled in the immediate pattern. With multiple aircraft in your circuit, you will need a dedicated flight controller to stop an unholy mess developing when they all try to land at once! Flying off such a small field, you will need to be organised as if for an air display. The field is small because you are dependant on 'line of sight' for both your flight controller AND you flyers. You will need a communication system that enables your flight controller to talk to the flyers given that they may well be scattered throughout the carrier. You will need to organise a flying 'program'/operational plan to throughput who flies and when and takes into account size/type of aircraft and ease of dispatch and recovery. You will need to think about what you will do if you have to recover an 'downed' aircraft and how you will deal with HARD deck landings!!! (Those landings when things fall off the aircraft in large chunks!) When I said you were 'nuts' earlier in this post, it was in both admiration AND because I think you're nuts. If the stuff I've put in here helps, I'm more than happy to go on but let me know.

duncan

The model airshow I refered to in previous post was called "Striking Back". Filmed at Ida Grove , the "Byron Originals Aviation Expo" 1987 spectacular ran from 1981-91 with large scale planes in the circuit,bombing , landing , taking-off and crashing on a pretty large airstrip. Copies may be obtained from http://www.templeaeromodellers.org/videos.htm . Worth a look. The Akagi IJN carrier is vast but is a wheeled prop. That was 20 years ago, what is possible today I wonder. One pilot and watcher/caller per plane, 360degree vision required I`d think and a choreographer/air traffic controller. Deck recovery crew for whoever drew the short straw ! ....OOPS that link didnt work sorry.

Albion

Thanks for the ideas Martin, keep them coming. I think you have reinforced my thoughts of treating the flight deck as a somewhat dangerous place even considering the planes are rc, and therefore very necessary to keep people off of it during ops. I don't recall if I related this earlier, but I intend for all the planes to be equipped with FPV or real time remote cameras. These would pan-rotate allowing the flyer to have almost a full field of view from the plane itself, making it easier and safer to bring them back onboard (probably). The flyers can be positioned at various places along the sides of the flight deck where the upper gallery is located. I don't know if its necessary, but for safety reasons I have considered placing the flying positions behind lexan sheilds that can be taken down and stowed when not in use. From these locations the flyers should be able to see any signals from the Air boss above the island, though I think your right that a communication system will be necessary. Any opinion on the number of channels needed?
With FPV flying, the planes can go off five miles or more from the controller, since his view is not from the ground but from the plane itself, making it difficult to rack visually. That in mind, I can increase the radar cross section of the plane tremendously by adding reflectors into the fuselage. If the planes were detectable, would having radar onboard help the "Air Boss" at all? Or would the lack of transponders in the individual planes just increase the mess?
Hard deck landings? I have visions of a fireball enveloping the after part of the models flight deck. I wonder if that would actually happen?
Downed aircraft recovery is easy.
1/7 scale destroyer as a Plane Guard.

Duncan, I have heard of Byron and his large scale planes and ships but cannot find anything related on the internet, its a bit frustrating since a fellow who devoted time to something like that must have been fairly interesting, not to mention the models themselves.

P.S. I know I'm nuts, completely mad most probably.

Task Force 57

The nice thing about being nuts is the wealth of life experiances we get that the mundanes do not!

Been giving the Operational side of Carrier ops some thought...
Plane recovery will be a major problem, three or so inflatables will be required and a diver or two in case you get rapid sinking planes in coastal waters...id think about some hull mounted camera's to aid in this. With regards take off, id have your cat-man with a multi crystal/channel control to handle take off and then climb to 20m's before hand over...a landing officer/batman to bring em back onboard would be a good plan, camera's will need to be angle down at 45 degrees to allow a pilots eye view...not good for flying, id thus suggest that a L.S.O handle it from a perpex covered possition on the port beam aft using the mk 1 eyeball method.

Fireballs....hrrrrrrrrrrm ! dont tempt fate!!!!! Id say that the deck will be tough enough if you actualy use a triple thickness then scale deck. You have to have it over scale in thickness if your going to walk on it anyway...

As To RC aircraft exploding in 1/7th scale... havnt seen a fireball yet, but it would be fun to do!!! dont forget your deck sprinklers.

This Ship is going to be SOOO Much fun to see operational.

Regards

Russ.

Albion

Russ I would say that having the shooter handle the planes during launch and an LSO do the same for landing is a good idea, except that I would worry about the flyers staging a mutiny. Pilots (which is what rc flyers considers themselves) are touchy creatures at the best of times and I'm not sure how they would react to handing over the controls when things just start to get interesting. You are very right though in that launching and landing would require a lot of skill, so I can see now that an interested flyer would have to go through Carrier Qualifications before being allowed to take off and land from the ship. I might need to acquire some sort of trainer for that. I wonder if the Swordfish would be a good selection for the role, never flown one though so I couldn't say.
The planes will definitely have integral foam flotation to aid in recovery. At a few hundred apiece, can't afford to lose any that way.

duncan

I don't see much of problem with take-off, the catapult will have the aircraft flying before it knows it. The pilot should be in control of it all times, hand overs are fraught with problems. No problem with frequencies now that 2.4 GHz synthesised r/c systems are available on the civilian/hobby market. Foam construction in model aircraft is normal, some are even 95% foam airframe. Fireballs unlikely, go electric (search U tube for r/c B52 crash) Landing aids,Eyball Mk.1. fitted to ace pilot. Biplanes, like Swordfish although slower have other undesirable traits but Gladiator probably worth trying. Out-of-sight flying is illegal in most countries, insurance companies and FAA will pounce. See debate on www.RCGroups.com in the Aerial Photography section, also there is lot of technical expertise in the RPV section. Large Scale Model Aircraft section and Electric Aircraft should be browsed too. There are a lot of people that would love to get involved in your project, might be a documentary company that could help with PR and funding. Expect to spend at least USD1000 per plane. Keep the info coming , we are all rooting for you.