RNZAF Markings - Page 2

Kiwi · 05-06-2005

ZAF Proportional description 32/16. This unusual roundel seems to have used on early Dakota deliveries in 1943. It has been positively identified on the fuselage of NZ3501(the wings appeared to carry ZBP roundels at the time). It is very likely that it was applied in Hawaii for ferry purposes (hence the F) and within the bounds of photographic scale measurement and a bit of speculation, one can arrive at the conclusion that the red was painted with a 6 inch diameter, the white was 12 inches, and enough blue to comfortably cover the American marking underneath. With some degree of confidence from the photograph measurements, it can be stated that the overall diameter was very close to 42 inches. These dubious origins tend to be supported by the fact that many later Dakota fuselage-particularly of the ZP barred type-came in a variety of sizes and proportions. It may be that Dakota fuselage roundels during the war years will defy classification, and in this respect it should be noted that for the moment, NZ3501 on delivery is the only example known as the ZAF as described. This aircraft, which was bought on charge for 40 Sqn on 27 February 1943, is shown on arrival in the attachment

ZAP Proportional description 48/24. This roundel superseded the ZA, and was derived simply by substituting a blue centre for the ZA’s red. This may have occurred later than the similar treatment given to the wing roundels and was certainly evident of Catalina fuselage applications during 1943. As such it was almost invariably in the ZAP.2 form. Photographically it is often difficult to tell a ZAP from a ZA because converted roundels would often have a centre in a different shade of blue or fading would vary between two sets of the same blue. It has also been tentatively identified on Kittyhawk upper wing surfaces during early 1943 and also on a Hudson under wing surface in December 1942

adzam · 05-06-2005

Excellent thread kiwi with plenty info .

Kiwi · 06-06-2005

ZB The ZB roundel is known only by two documentary references, but these are so explicit as to leave no doubt that this type of roundel did exist. The first reference, in November 1942, was to Hudsons in the forward area having “all blue roundels on the upper surfaces”. The second reference, in August 1943, indicated that Venturas were arriving at Whenuapai (Auckland) on delivery with the top surface of the wings marked with “just a large blue circle”. By the time of the second reference, however, the Hudson roundels had been modified to ZBP format and it seems that the change had been notified to Hawaii where the Venturas were receiving their New Zealand marks. The apparent origin of the ZB is quite straightforward. In blue for the red centre of the B roundel, the result was quite simply a large blue circle. From this it follows that the ZB was probably restricted to the upper wing surface only, and apart from the two types mentioned, may have also been carried by Kittyhawks of 15 Sqn- but this is unconfirmed and any case would have been only for a very short period before the ZBP was introduced.
In the photo of 1 Sqns Hudson NZ2035 SJ-F parked beside the RAAF Lancaster ED930,
A66-1 in June 1943 the ZB roundel is just discernable on the wings.

ZBP The November 1942 reference to the ZB on the Hudsons was by way of a report on a trial then underway in the forward area in which the roundel was modified by applying a white ring to it. The inside diameter of the ring was given as 12 inches and it’s width as two inches. On the assumption (made with some justification) that the overall diameter of the roundel was 48 inches, we can identify a blue-white-blue roundel of proportional description 40/30. Not much evidence has been found that such a roundel existed – in those exact proportions – but the next stage of evolution to the ZPB leaves little room for doubt. The ZBP would have been used for all wing roundels, upper and lower, on Kittyhawks and Hudsons in the forward area during most of 1943. By late 1943 Venturas would be carrying the ZBP and Catalina wings and quite possibility Dakota wings were similarly marked.

ZC, ZCP Proportional description 60/45, i.e. the same as the British C roundel. Some doubt surrounds the existence of both of these roundels. Appearing primarily on Avenger fuselages, it is quite possible that one or the other did not exist. Some of the Avengers were delivered with standard British markings which at the time were C roundels below the wings,C.1 on the fuselage, and B on the wing upper surfaces. The Avengers first moved to the forward area during January 1944, and had the white bars added before they went. Photographs show the white bars added to roundels of C proportions but with two distinct colours either side of the white ring. On the one hand it seems incongruous that the bars would be added to a red centered roundel; on the other hand there is no evidence to suggest that the centers were repainted blue beforehand (even though these Avengers were brought on charge after the first application of blue centres to the Hudson fuselage roundels and the adoption of blue centred wing roundels generally). Another possibility is that the change was made direct from C to the barred blue/white/blue (the ZPC) in which case neither the ZC or ZCP existed. While further investigation is done a photo of an Avenger in early 1944 with the roundels concerned is attached so you can make up your own mind. Note how the presentation of the code letter has necessitated the deletion of one of the white bars

Kiwi · 08-06-2005

The ZP family
The ZP family of roundels, characterised by the addition of white bars to a blue-white-blue roundel, were the culmination of the development of wartime RNZAF roundels. There are many variations on these and I will try and cover the general background before continuing with the article.

On 7 December 1943 Sqn Ldr H.T.Grigg, RNZAF Base depot, Espiritu Santo sent a memo to Air Department, Wellington, New Zealand, which provided an interesting piece of information regarding the addition of white side bars to roundels. The memo is headed up “WARHAWK P-40N: WHITE IDENTIFICATION ON EMPENNAGE’, the second paragraph reads as follows:
“It is understood that White panels on either side of the roundel, similar to those in the new American national markings, are also being added at New Georgia, but until the position is a little more stable it is not proposed to ask for these to be added while the aircraft are in New Zealand, and as the area is not great, they can be readily painted on as required up here.”
This is the only known official indication that the white bars were being applied prior to 8 December 1943. The units “adding” side bars at New Georgia were Nos 2 and 4 Fighter SUs. Their attached squadrons at the time were Nos 18 and 14 respectively. Photographic evidence exists to show that 2 SU/18 Sqn were applying white bars to their P-40 roundels at least earlier than 26 November 1943. Just how much earlier is not known for certain at this time but it would certainly appear as if they were first to apply such markings, and apparently did so without official Air Department approval.
Early in December 1943 official memoranda passed between No 1 Islands Group and Air Department, Wellington, New Zealand concerning the addition of white bars to RNZAF roundels. The first of these, dated 8 December appeared over the signature of Sqn Ldr A.T.Giles on behalf of Air Officer Commanding No 1 Islands Group. It reads as follows.
AIRCRAFT NATIONALITY MARKINGS

To comply with request of American Authorities and to enable RNZAF aircraft operating in this area to be more easily recognised it has been decided to add certain markings to the roundels to coincide with those on American aircraft.
A white strip to extend each side of roundel on both fuselage and wings.

FUSELAGE
The strip to be 9 ¼ inches wide and to extend to a length of 18 ½ inches each side of roundel using centre of roundel as centre line of strip and to run parallel with centre line of fuselage.

WINGS
The strip to be 12 inches wide and extend to a length of 24 inches each side of roundel using centre of roundel as centre of strip and to a run in a line at right angles to the line of flight.

The bottom of this memo carried the handwritten comment: ”This has already been actioned and drawings despatched to units concerned.” This memo was also addressed to the Officers Commanding RNZAF Base Depot, Espiritu Santo, RNZAF NZAPO 366 Guadalcanal and RNZAF APO 308, New Georgia.
The next message, dated ( December, was from Sqn Ldr G.Ellis, Air Department, Wellington to Base Depot and copied to No 1 Islands Group:
“T.682-9 DEC
Comsopac signal 072332Z repeated to Comairsopac and Comairsols requests addition of white bar to RNZAF roundels. Obtain particulars and approval of design by AOC No 1 Islands Group. Forward final design Air Department by Air Mail. Modify all aircraft on strength.”

Comsopac = Commander South Pacific
Comairsopac = Commander Air South Pacific
Comairsols = Commander Air Solomons

The next and most interesting communication took place on the 12th with the following message being despatched by Sqn Ldr H.T.Grigg on behalf of OC RNZAF Base Depot, NZAPO. 361 to Air Department, Wellington:

NATIONALITY MARKINGS RNZAF COMBAT AIRCRAFT

In reply to your signal T 682 of 9th December enclosed herewith is one copy of drawing B.D.21001 which gives details of the white bars to be added on either side of the roundels on both wings and fuselage. It will be noticed that the bar is in the proportion of ½ radius wide by 1 radius long. The radius being that of the outer circumference of the roundel. All other markings not shown on the drawings including flashes on the fins are retained as formerly.
All units in this area have been instructed to paint in these white bars at the first opportunity.”
This memo was annotated. ”Noted: already actioned. Drg BD.21001 filed in RM Drg Office.” Signed (illegible) and dated 19/12/43
Unfortunately the copy of Drawing B.D.21001 does not survive (This situation applies to the official RNZAF records for almost everything pre – 1950. This also applies to designations of the various roundels and fin flashes. Defence Headquarters advise that official designations were issued for some of them but no record is now held)
However from the description given above, together with photographs of actual aircraft painted with roundels in accordance with the said drawing render its absence of little importance now. The prefix “BD” of the drawing number indicated “Base Depot”: the RNZAF’s most important engineering establishment outside New Zealand at that time.

Kiwi · 11-06-2005

This is just to let you know that there will be a slight delay in the next instalment whilst I co-relate note from various sources. The next part will deal with the "Pacific"roundels with the white bars.

duncan · 11-06-2005

Great stuff Kiwi, keep it coming (when you can). Some time before your namesake appears instead of a red inner spot ?

Kiwi · 11-06-2005

Duncan, about 25 years!

Kiwi · 22-06-2005

THE BARS.
Much has been said in the past with regard to White Bar Roundels worn by RNZAF aircraft during World War 2, some of which has not only been inaccurate but also confusing.
Personal experience of measuring WW 2 roundels confirms one thing as quite certain; the dimensions are not only inconsistent but also most irregular. Roundels of the same type often varied in diameter from as little as 1/8 inch up to 5 inches, sometimes more. This also applies to White Bars whose length and width not only varied from roundel to roundel but even on occasions from one side of the roundel to the other. While these roundels and bars were meant to be of uniform size and shape; more often than not they weren’t, presumably as a result of their “in-the-field” application. Therefore, it follows that is what is true for one particular marking will not necessarily be true for others- this reinforces the old adage of scale modellers, always work to a photo.
White Bar roundels fall into three categories:
1. Overpainted US Star and Bar Insignia
2. 2. Overpainted RAF Roundels with White Bars added.
3. RNZAF White Bar Roundels.
Within these broad categories there were many variations.
The diagram traces the development of American national aircraft insignia until 1947. The dates quoted are those of when the use of each type was officially discontinued. The “Star and Bar” type, which relates to the overpainted insignia, is shown in the diagram and was in use by the US Forces from August 1943 to 14 January 1947. This marking is officially described as an “Insignia White five pointed star inside an Insignia Blue circumscribed circle, having Insignia White rectangles on each side of the star and the top edges of the two star points; the borders to be Insignia Blue.”
As US forces began operating aircraft wearing these modified insignia it was discovered that the White of the star and bars was too bright when used on a dark surface; therefore the following official amendment was made.
June 1943-Insignia White
When used on upper surfaces finished in semi Gloss Sea Blue (e.g. Corsair wings) is to be replaced by a Gray Color obtained by mixing one part Insignia White and one part Light Gray.
The official colors used in American insignia along with the Federal Standards numbers and Humbrol equivalents are as follows:
Non Specular Insignia White-FS37886 = 36-No34 + 1-HU10
Non Specular Insignia Blue- FS35044 = 2-No25 + 1-No33
Non Specular Gray mix-FS36440 + FS37866 = 1-HB6+36-No34+1HU10

Kiwi · 12-07-2005

OVERPAINTED US STAR AND BAR INSIGNIA
This insignia was overpainted in various ways as shown in the diagrams . Some simply had the star and circle portion of the US Insignia overpainted with an RNZAF Blue/White/Blue or Blue/White/Blue/Yellow roundel. This resulted in an RNZAF roundel which had offset US bars with Insignia Blue borders. Others had the entire US Star and Bar Insignia overpainted with an RNZAF Blue/White/Blue or Blue/White/Blue/Yellow roundel and White bars, with or without Insignia Blue borders.
OVERPAINTED RAF ROUNDELS WITH WHITE BARS.
While there were several variations of these “Bar” roundels they were fairly straight forward in that as far as is known all had centralised White Bars.
RNZAF WHITE BAR ROUNDELS
These roundels can be classified into two types:
1) Offset bars, with or without Insignia Blue Borders. These were used to duplicate the overpainted US Star and Bar Insignia on port under and starboard upper surfaces of wings.
2) Those with centralised White Bars with or without Insignia Blue borders.
Note:
The offset bars of overpainted United States Insignia/RNZAF Roundels while easily identified on the actual aircraft are sometimes difficult to ascertain from photographs. A simple check is to place a ruler parallel with the top or bottom edges of the bars. This will readily demonstrate whether or not bars are offset. This will in turn establish the following:
OFFSET BARS
1) An overpainted US Star and Circle Insignia retaining US Bars or
2) Completely overpainted US Stars and Bar Insignia or
3) An RNZAF Roundel with offset White Bars to duplicate overpainted US Star and Bar Insignia, e.g. on Corsair, to match overpainted American Insignia on wing opposite.(See diagram)
CENTRALISED BARS
1) An RNZAF White Bar Roundel or
2) An overpainted RAF Roundel with White Bars added.(See Diagram)
Note in the photo of the RNZAF roundel being applied the protective equipment that the tradesman is wearing !

Kiwi · 13-07-2005

Note:
Although based on the American bars for proportion, the RNZAF bars differed slightly in having no border specified. A border was normal, however, for those aircraft delivered later with bordered US bars. The RNZAF specification was for each bar to be one roundel radius long as half as wide. In the proportional notation used in this tutorial, that equates to 60 x 30. The RNZAF also specified that the bars should be placed equally about the roundel centre which, in theory, gave a slightly different overall shape to the US marking in which the top of the bars was lined up with the arms of the star. As can be seen form the previous descriptions, what was specified, and what actually occurred, differed. In the accompanying diagram the bars have been centred and drawn to 60 x 30 proportions, but this has been for simplification . Notable exceptions are in the Avenger applications in which the proportions are more in the order of 90 x 45. Dakotas also show some considerable variations at times
Now on to the individual ZP roundels and their origins.

ZPA
Proportional description 48/24 approximately. This roundel appears to have been the standard for P-40 fuselages for forward based aircraft from January 1944 onwards, and also probably for 3 and 5 SUs. The derivation from A to ZA to ZAP to ZPA is easily seen and is the basis for the proportional description given. It is known from actual scrapyard measurements that there was variation.. These measurements from two aircraft are 30 ½, 12 and 6 ½ inches. These give proportional descriptions of 47/26 and 48/25 respectively. The 6 ½ inch centre is corroborated by documentary evidence (see under ZA) and so there seems to have been some form of standard. The puzzle is why such odd measurements were used when a logical system would have changed a 30, 12, 6 inch A type roundel to 30, 12, 6 inch type ZA, ZAP and ZPA.

The problem is exacerbated by the fact that NZ Defence Headquarters have advised that official RNZAF records for almost everything pre-1950, in relation to colour schemes and markings, no longer existed.