Finding the squadrons 'ID' letter of a plane

GerryW

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How would folks go about finding the 'ID' letter of a WW2 Hurricane - I've most records relating to it, but this is the one piece of info I'm missing, I've possibly already got it, as I've a record of a signal number regarding the incident with the letter 'S' as a prefix - would that be it? (I know nothing about how RAF signals were recorded)
 

stona

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I take it you are seeking this aircraft's individual identification letter.

They can be tricky because a letter would have been used on several aircraft (obviously not at the same time) and some aircraft changed their identification letter whilst at a squadron.

Operations Record Books and pilots' log books will usually record an aircraft by its serial number rather than its squadron ID letter for these reasons. The same applies to an aircraft's movement card and any other official correspondence regarding it. The serial number was supposed to be unique to an aircraft throughout its life (and usually was). I would bet that the records that you have use that number. You may get lucky and find that someone used the ID letter in conjunction with the serial number.

Quite often the only way we can reconcile the squadron ID letter with a particular aircraft is by finding a suitable photograph. Otherwise some squadron diarists and pilots occasionally refer to an aircraft by its squadron letter or even complete code (AB-C).
 

GerryW

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I take it you are seeking this aircraft's individual identification letter.

They can be tricky because a letter would have been used on several aircraft (obviously not at the same time) and some aircraft changed their identification letter whilst at a squadron.

Operations Record Books and pilots' log books will usually record an aircraft by its serial number rather than its squadron ID letter for these reasons. The same applies to an aircraft's movement card and any other official correspondence regarding it. The serial number was supposed to be unique to an aircraft throughout its life (and usually was). I would bet that the records that you have use that number. You may get lucky and find that someone used the ID letter in conjunction with the serial number.

Quite often the only way we can reconcile the squadron ID letter with a particular aircraft is by finding a suitable photograph. Otherwise some squadron diarists and pilots occasionally refer to an aircraft by its squadron letter or even complete code (AB-C).

Yes, got the airframe number, squadron letters, but missing the individual letter, I've checked the squadron records, they all refer to the airframe no. so looking like it's going to be a long search - has been anyway. It was only when I was going through the paperwork that I've accumulated, that I spotted the message reference on the accident report form, and wondered if it could possibly have been the preceding letter - reason I thought that, would be that it would identify the source of the message, rather than a report from another plane?
 
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stona

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What is the context of the 'S' in the message?

I would have thought it would have to be specifically a reference to the aircraft in question, and probably linked to the serial to be relevant..
 

Jakko

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Are you trying to find the letter of one specific aircraft that you want to build with accurate markings? Because if not, you can just pick any plausible letter.
 

GerryW

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What is the context of the 'S' in the message?

I would have thought it would have to be specifically a reference to the aircraft in question, and probably linked to the serial to be relevant..
Hopefully the scan will show - it's the 'signal number' (circled in red)
Hurricane001a.jpg
Are you trying to find the letter of one specific aircraft that you want to build with accurate markings? Because if not, you can just pick any plausible letter.
Yes, Jakko, it's a specific aircraft
 

stona

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I'm certain that the S does not refer to the aircraft.

It's an awkward date. It doesn't help that apart from a few detached flights the squadron didn't fight the Battle of France. I've just looked through dozens of photos from the first few months of 1940, not one of a 56 Squadron aircraft!
 
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GerryW

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I'm certain that the S does not refer to the aircraft.

It's an awkward date. It doesn't help that apart from a few detached flights the squadron didn't fight the Battle of France. I've just looked through dozens of photos from the first few months of 1940, not one of a 56 Squadron aircraft!
Oh well, was just a thought! Thanks for looking - I've just the one photo (not too brilliant one at that), but that was from April 1940 (over North Weald) which is too late for this plane. It had only been with the squadron for just over 6 months (came as a replacement on 12/6/39 under authority 14754) before crashing - but as you can see the night/white goes up to the spinners & looks to go right to the rear, as opposed to some squadrons who only had under the wings painted.
Hurricane002.jpg
 

stona

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I haven't checked the ORB (Form 541) which should be freely available in TNA, but I would not expect it to shed any light. If you haven't looked I'll check it in the morning.
 

GerryW

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I haven't checked the ORB (Form 541) which should be freely available in TNA, but I would not expect it to shed any light. If you haven't looked I'll check it in the morning.
Have got access to form 540, but nothing in there.
 

adt70hk

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Gerry,

Hope can work it out. I had a similar conundrum last year but was able to get to the bottom of it in the end – at least in my satisfaction.

Good luck.

Andrew

They can be tricky because a letter would have been used on several aircraft (obviously not at the same time) and some aircraft changed their identification letter whilst at a squadron.
Steve

Thanks for this little titbit of information. I came to this conclusion myself when doing some research on a Mosquito, although I couldn’t find any confirmation of it happening in general and in my case in particular. It’s therefore good to have it confirmed that it could happen on occasion.

All the best.

Andrew
 

GerryW

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Gerry,

Short 19 second video.
56 Squadron

Picture 1 - copy right exists so link here :-
Aircraft 1

Aircraft 2

Aircraft 3

History -

Accident

Book cover:-

Cover
Scroll down the page to see the book cover)
How accurate it is I have no idea!! :smiling:

HTH,

Paul.
:smiling:
Thanks Paul, the pilot was Mr Cooney (came from Rhos Robin in Denbyshire) and his injury was a broken nose. Unfortunately, the lady that we knew and who was an eye-witness has passed away.
 

GerryW

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Gerry,

Hope can work it out. I had a similar conundrum last year but was able to get to the bottom of it in the end – at least in my satisfaction.

Good luck.

Andrew


Steve

Thanks for this little titbit of information. I came to this conclusion myself when doing some research on a Mosquito, although I couldn’t find any confirmation of it happening in general and in my case in particular. It’s therefore good to have it confirmed that it could happen on occasion.

All the best.

Andrew
Yes Andrew, I'm hoping to get there - it's just going to be a long while I'm afraid. Worst thing that'll happen, is that I'll do the dio without decals.
 

adt70hk

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Yes Andrew, I'm hoping to get there - it's just going to be a long while I'm afraid. Worst thing that'll happen, is that I'll do the dio without decals.
It is frustrating isn't it. I spent hours on it in my case as it's a well documented and photographed aircraft but there was conflicting info on what the plane ID was. Good luck.

ATB.

Andrew
 

prichrd1

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Thanks Paul, the pilot was Mr Cooney (came from Rhos Robin in Denbyshire

Small world, I used to travel to school through Rhosrobin in Denbighshire [It was then - later County of Clwyd - and now County of Wrexham!!]
on the way to school before Wrexham by-pass was built.

Flight Sargent Cooney is mentioned in one of the photographs that I have seen. He flew two aircraft both Hurricanes - L1984 which crashed just
after take off and P3879 in which he was shot down and sadly killed in [But you probably know all that].

Paul.
:smiling:
 

GerryW

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Small world, I used to travel to school through Rhosrobin in Denbighshire [It was then - later County of Clwyd - and now County of Wrexham!!]
on the way to school before Wrexham by-pass was built.

Flight Sargent Cooney is mentioned in one of the photographs that I have seen. He flew two aircraft both Hurricanes - L1984 which crashed just
after take off and P3879 in which he was shot down and sadly killed in [But you probably know all that].

Paul.
:smiling:
Thanks Paul, sorry about spellings of the village etc. had moved rooms and left the paperwork near the bench & computer and was using my phone.
Didn't know about P3879. My wife did do a little bit of 'digging' into him on Ancestry.com, and found that he was married, but couldn't find if they had children. For a long time, we couldn't find Rhosrobin on the maps as we were looking for a village, didn't realise that Wrexham had swallowed it since the war, as we were visiting the area a few times at the time, and would have called in at the church/chapel/war memorial to see it (he is commemorated on the wall).
 

prichrd1

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Don't worry about the spellings - it's a minor detail, I hear tourists here really having fun trying to pronounce Welsh place names !! :smiling::tongue-out3::tears-of-joy:
Be thankful that he didn't live in Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch .

Flt Sgt Cooney is also mentioned on the Battle of Britain London Monument:-

Memorial

Short bio and picture of the plaque near the bottom of the page.

As for the church plaque - Rhosrobin only has 22 names on it - from the First War :-

[IWM does not have a photograph of this memorial - so next time I'm passing I will try
to get one for them].

Plaque

Paul.
:smiling:
 

stona

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The No 56 Squadron Intelligence Report covering Cooney's loss. It would have been compiled from the pilots' accounts and Combat Reports.

"On 29.7.40 aircraft of 56 Squadron left Rochford at about 07.10 hours, and on being told to orbit they encountered some e/a off Dover, the formation becoming separated in searching for them.
The leader (F/Lt Coghlan) saw about 6 Me 109s at 6/8,000 feet and 25/30 Me 109s at 12,000 feet, but they all disappeared when he went in to attack the smaller formation. Some Spitfires were engaging the e/a and he saw one Spitfire shoot down three e/a, one in flames, one emitting glycol and one emitting smoke. He saw all three fall into the sea.
Blue 1 (F/O Weaver) joined a dog-fight 10 miles east of Dover and set an Me 109 on fire. This was witnessed by Blue3 (Sgt Smythe) and Blue 2 (Sgt Hillwood) and is claimed as confirmed destroyed.
Red 2 (P/O Wicks) and Red 3 (P/O Moundson) saw dive bombers attacking Dover Harbour. The former went to attack them but encountered 12 Me 109s at 11,000 feet. He attacked two with no visible effect, but saw his fire exploding on both. Red 3 was attacked by an Me 109 and was hit in port wing but e/a then disappeared.
Blue 3 (Sgt Smythe) broke away on his own, his R/T message that there were e/a on his left not being received. He attacked an Me 109 which fled at sea level, and he broke off when all his ammunition was expended.
Red 4 (Sgt Cooney) is missing and feared to be dead. F/O Weaver saw a Hurricane attacked by an Me 109 and go down emitting white smoke. It is understood that Searchlight Post No. 22 and Leathercoats Signals saw an unidentified a/c emitting white smoke crash into the sea with two loud explosions. A boat went out but found only three large oil marks."

Cooney's casualty file repeats the same information only adding that no parachute descents were seen and that only one Hurricane aircraft had come down on land, at Manston, and that it was identified and not Cooney's. It led the authorities to the inescapable conclusion that Cooney had perished when his aircraft hit the sea not far from the Goodwin Sands lightship.

The relevant section of the 'A' Flight, 56 Squadron, ORB for the day of the accident. As useless as expected in your quest! There is nothing in the 'remarks' no mention that the aircraft was lost.

ORB_56.png
 
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