Morris CS9-based Command Vehicle

[Steve-the-Duck]

Not sure if this is the right sub-forum to ask, but does anyone have any pictures or drawings of the Morris armoured command vehicle from 1940?
It was based on the CS9 armoured car, and anecdotal evidence suggests the 6 boiler-plate prototypes were with the BEF in France. So far I have only ever found one photograph, from a mid-eighties magazine, of one operating in the Western Desert. Such a rare beast is he, many aren't even aware of its' existance.
Cheers

 

[Jakko]

I know I wasn’t, but then, early Second World War isn’t really my area of expertise in any case. I just checked and it’s not mentioned in the Encyclopedia of Armoured Cars by Duncan Crow and Robert J. Icks (London: Barrie & Jenkins, 1976), but then, that doesn’t have a photo of the CS9 either (though it does mention that one).

 

[Gary MacKenzie]

Only 99 of the original design were orderred.
If the altered ??? versions were with 12th Lancers BEF in France, they were all lost there. ( destroyed or abandoned near Dunkirk )
30 of the original production batch went to North Africa , so maybe a command version was there. ( 11th Hussars )

 

[Steve Jones]

Hopefully this is what you are after Chris

 

[Neil Merryweather]

How DO you do it???

 

[Steve Jones]

I put a new flux capacitor in the De Lorean and went back and took a few pictures

 

[Gary MacKenzie]

How DO you do it???

click me

 

[Steve-the-Duck]

Ben Kenobi voice: 'These aren't the cars I'm looking for'.

These are the only pictures I have of this rare beast: the first is labelled 'Morris Reconnaissance Car', and is probably the CS11.
As you can see from the second picture that's the prototype ACV based on the CS11 chassis.
The third picture is the actual CS9-based ACV and may actually be the only photo, of the ACV, from a magazine article written by David Fletcher of Bovington fame.

Steve: thanks for your pictures, but I already have those, the first one I believe is a Crossley Mk.1.
That experimental paint scheme is so attractive I wish there was a model of that vehicle. Scratch-building time?
The other pictures are all the basic CS9 armoured car.
That one it on the barn with the chickens is crying out for a diorama. ICM do a livestock set I believe?

Gary: The Fletcher article does mention the 99 planned CS9's of which 15 were supposed to be made 'office type' it says there.
The anecdotal evidence is that only 8 may have been made, but if even Bovington doesn't have records, who will? Morris, maybe?
Cheers for everybody's pointers; the hunt continues...

 

[Jakko]

Oh, the one with the parasol is the command variant you’re after? That’s a well-known photo but I never knew it wasn’t a standard CS9. (Of course, the CS9 is not a vehicle type I can identify by name offhand anyway.)

 

[Gary MacKenzie]

Gary: The Fletcher article does mention the 99 planned CS9's of which 15 were supposed to be made 'office type' it says there.
The anecdotal evidence is that only 8 may have been made, but if even Bovington doesn't have records, who will? Morris, maybe?
Cheers for everybody's pointers; the hunt continues...

To be honest i doubt whether any records exist now after the debacle of leaving so much stuff behind at dunkirk.
The only info i could find about the non-command versions was that they were good with sand tyres , were not well protected , were not used after 1/2 way thru the desert campaign.
If as stated they were used alongside rolls royce vehicles, they were not very advanced for their time, more a stop gap, use anything vehicle.

 

[Steve-the-Duck]

Jakko, here's where some confusion comes in with the parasol picture - that is indeed a CS9 armoured car, the turret is just visible.
The command vehicle doesn't have a turret, but as there aren't any pictures of the two together, it's impossible to tell if the ACV has the same height hull, or is taller, as you might expect to give the officers room to stand up.

Should have known this would open a barrel of monkeys!

And just to confuse matters further, some sources seem to believe the ACVs in France were Dorchester ACV prototypes, a vehicle that didn't exist until, I think, July or August 1940
Now, if all the ACVs were with 1st Armoured, they might all have been at Calais, so I carefuly scour the backgrounds of every picture taken there
Then there's that the Germans don't seem to have photo-ed or used them after capture. Unlike, say, Rommel's Dorchesters
Honestly though, the CS9 is a bit rubbish!

 

[Jakko]

here's where some confusion comes in with the parasol picture - that is indeed a CS9 armoured car

Ah, OK. I got confused there because I kind of figured Steve’s pictures all showed the command version you’re after, and I was wondering how to tell them apart from the regular armoured car … Turns out these photos are mostly of the CS9 armoured car after all

The command vehicle doesn't have a turret, but as there aren't any pictures of the two together, it's impossible to tell if the ACV has the same height hull, or is taller, as you might expect to give the officers room to stand up.

I wouldn’t say “impossible” — you can measure in known photographs to see if they differ, for example. Use the wheel diameter (top to bottom) as a base.

However, just comparing the vehicles in the photo you say is of the vehicle you’re looking for and the regular armoured car, I can already see the former probably has a raised roof. Look at the driver’s position and the aerial mount: the driver’s view port appears to be the same on both vehicles, but it has a flat roof above it on the turreted armoured car, but a sloping roof on the command vehicle. The top of the aerial mount is only a little above the driver’s visor on both vehicles, but again, the roof on the command version is much higher than it.

Then there's that the Germans don't seem to have photo-ed or used them after capture.

Most of the German photos are from soldiers who took pictures of interesting stuff they came across, so if the command version was both rare and didn’t look particularly interesting (a vehicle with a turret with guns is better to photograph than one without, isn’t it?) chances are nobody bothered.

 

[Steve-the-Duck]

Jakko, I said impossible, but you are correct - I should have said 'improbable'...
And I wish I still had the original picture. Those were some very useful insights on the top. Is the front above the driver canvas or solid, would you say?

The real trouble I'm (eventually) going to have is what the back end of the thing looks like - the CS9 has two low-mounted stowage bins with a hatch between them. The ACV looks longer at the rear to me. Or the bodywork extends to the length of the bins on the armoure car?
Thoughts and interpretations?

Oh, and you're right about 'interesting' photos, which is why it's fun to see just what's in the background of some of them

 

[Jakko]

The sloping roof looks metal to me — it’s got a very sharp edge on the corner where the roof meets the side and there seems to be some kind of vertical post to the left of the centreline, halfway up the roof.

What’s puzzling me is what’s underneath the canvas. Did it have an open top and a canvas tilt to put over it, or was the roof metal as well, and they put a sheet over it to keep the sun off? Or is there some kind of stowage on the roof, with the sheet to keep that in place?

 

[Steve-the-Duck]

Again, thanks for your invaluable insights and interpretations, Jakko. You're pointing out things I'd only partly registered.

The David Fletcher article, from which the photograph comes says:
'We know nothing of the interior arrangements, but from surviving photographs it seems that the top of the centre section ws open to the sky, and only covered by a canvas sheet.'
Photographs, plural. And I count about four places where there might be a frame or bar under the tarp.
Does it look like the back of the cover follows the line of the rear hull? And, if Fletcher is right, and he usually is, why would there be only be a partial solid roof?

The CS11, the one next to the Vickers medium has a windscreen or 'sun-roof hatch in a solid roof.
When I build mine, using the mostly solid Warlord CS9, I'll be covering a multitude of sins with the tarp.

 

[Jakko]

The David Fletcher article, from which the photograph comes says:
'We know nothing of the interior arrangements, but from surviving photographs it seems that the top of the centre section ws open to the sky, and only covered by a canvas sheet.'
Photographs, plural.

If there are apparently more photographs, have you tried contacting the Tank Museum’s archives? Because if this is from David Fletcher, then I suppose that’s where he likely would have seen them.

And I count about four places where there might be a frame or bar under the tarp.

The odd thing is that the canvas seems to be tied down quite far down on the rear end. It looks like there is a solid side up to the top of the vehicle, but the canvas covers it at the rear of the right-hand side of the hull. But if it’s an issued tarp, then it probably wouldn’t be tied to the vehicle that far down. It looks more and more like an improvised thing to me.

And, if Fletcher is right, and he usually is, why would there be only be a partial solid roof?

There are all kinds of reasons why it might have that. Maybe the radios are under the solid part of the roof, to keep them out of the rain? It’s got two aerials, so probably two radio sets as well, and this being a 1930s vehicle, those would have been quite bulky and prone to being damaged.

The CS11, the one next to the Vickers medium has a windscreen or 'sun-roof hatch in a solid roof.

That one is just as odd: a roof hatch with a window … were they trying to make it more sporty? I also like the padded doors, must have been designed by someone used to luxury offices.

 

[Steve-the-Duck]

Thanks again Jakko
Time, I agree, to contact Bovington again. I was in touch with David Fletcher a few years back, in a short e-mail correspondence about some 'internet worthy' ideas in a Matilda book - he and the museum were very helpful then - wonder if their archives are open?

Y'know, that tarp cover now reminds me of the piece in the Airfix M3 half-track - that followed the line of the edge of the sides...
Also, the idea of the radios being undercover, perhaps with a gap between them Kind of fits - no more daft than many contemporary designs - no-one was considering the visibility of tall vehicles either

The padded doors on the CS11 'recce/office' may be leather, may be sound-proofing, or may be asbestos(!). I'd have gone for oak myself...
And as to odd little flip-up windscreens, none of Steve's pictures of the CS9 a/c show it, but there was a screen fitted to the front of the turret above the guns. Much as I like the CS9, I'm not sure the top speed cross-country warranted the screen.

 

[Jakko]

wonder if their archives are open?

I suspect not. It wasn’t Bovington, but some weeks ago I was looking into getting a copy of the war diaries of 1st Lothians and Border Yeomanry from the UK National Archives, only to end up on a web page that said that due to COVID-19, there was nobody there to handle requests for documents. (In the end, I got a copy via someone who had gotten one years ago, which helped me tremendously.)

Y'know, that tarp cover now reminds me of the piece in the Airfix M3 half-track - that followed the line of the edge of the sides...

Except on this CS11 it doesn’t look there are many supports underneath it. I wish we could tell from the photo how it was tied down, but the more I look at it, the more I get the impression it’s an improvised thing that’s just tied down at its corners.

And as to odd little flip-up windscreens, none of Steve's pictures of the CS9 a/c show it, but there was a screen fitted to the front of the turret above the guns. Much as I like the CS9, I'm not sure the top speed cross-country warranted the screen.

I suspect that when moving at top speed on a road, you’d like that screen if there are insects flying about

 

[Steve-the-Duck]

Just had a reply from Bovington with an enquiry form - Their archives re-open some time in August
So, that's a start
Hopefully, I may at least get a better resolution picture of the one I do have.
Hmm... If the tarp is tied inside, by whatever means, does that imply the bottom of the tarp IS aligned with the top of tye hull?

 

[Gary MacKenzie]

Chris, i have found looking thru MAFVA archives that an article with

Morris CS-9 15 cwt 4x2 ACV

Churc

was in 22.5 edition. which includes a plan by John Church.
I need to look thru my back editions and see if i have that one.