S
snapper41
Guest
Has anyone got good tips for weathering an Alclad finish? I'm doing a 1/24 P-47 Thunderbolt which I'll be doing in natural metal finish. Do you pre-shade? Post-shade? Panel wash? Any help welcome!
F
Fenlander
Guest
Good question!!! Simple answer is that I don't know. However, thinking about it, if the shiny stuff is used, it has to be over a gloss black undercoat so pre shading is not an option as far as panel lines are concerned.
If you do different panels in different primer, you may get some panel effect but it would be a pain to mask and paint individual panels.
As for post weathering, there is no way you could post shade the Alclad, it has to be sprayed and that is it. Not sure if you use filters and washes it would work. Although a Promodeller clay based wash would pick out the panel lines but to seal that under a varnish, I am not sure what the polished surface of the Alclad would look like varnished.
Good question, hope someone who has done it comes along.
If you do different panels in different primer, you may get some panel effect but it would be a pain to mask and paint individual panels.
As for post weathering, there is no way you could post shade the Alclad, it has to be sprayed and that is it. Not sure if you use filters and washes it would work. Although a Promodeller clay based wash would pick out the panel lines but to seal that under a varnish, I am not sure what the polished surface of the Alclad would look like varnished.
Good question, hope someone who has done it comes along.
stona
SMF Supporter
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2008
- Messages
- 11,470
- Points
- 113
- First Name
- Steve
I'd say don't preshade (assuming you don't do a gloss black undercoat). I tried it and the resultant shading was either invisible or far too stark,depending on the angle you viewed the model from.
You have two ways of making a bit of variation. You can spray panels in different shades of Alclad or you can add a drop or two of gloss black to your chosen Alclad to darken it and spray some panels with these mixes.
Post shading is possible. On the underside of a P-47 I did I first sprayed "Aluminium" and then post shaded with "Polished Aluminium" and "Dark Aluminium" to give a bit of variety.
I always seal my Alclad finishes with Klear. It does effect the finish but the difference is minimal. I settled an argument about this some time ago by spraying test pieces. There's no point in me posting the piccies because you can't see a difference in them!
I honestly don't believe a gloss black undercoat is needed under anything except one of the highly polished finishes. I just use my normal Halfords grey plastic primer.
Here's a piccy of the P-47. It doesn't really show the effect very well,I'm afraid it's beyond my very meagre photographic skills.
And a couple of my NMF Me262. This has far more pronounced shading which you can make out in the photos.
You can decal and apply Pro-modeller washes as usual. I've not tried an oil (solvent based) wash but it should be okay over the Klear.
Cheers
Steve
You have two ways of making a bit of variation. You can spray panels in different shades of Alclad or you can add a drop or two of gloss black to your chosen Alclad to darken it and spray some panels with these mixes.
Post shading is possible. On the underside of a P-47 I did I first sprayed "Aluminium" and then post shaded with "Polished Aluminium" and "Dark Aluminium" to give a bit of variety.
I always seal my Alclad finishes with Klear. It does effect the finish but the difference is minimal. I settled an argument about this some time ago by spraying test pieces. There's no point in me posting the piccies because you can't see a difference in them!
I honestly don't believe a gloss black undercoat is needed under anything except one of the highly polished finishes. I just use my normal Halfords grey plastic primer.
Here's a piccy of the P-47. It doesn't really show the effect very well,I'm afraid it's beyond my very meagre photographic skills.
And a couple of my NMF Me262. This has far more pronounced shading which you can make out in the photos.
You can decal and apply Pro-modeller washes as usual. I've not tried an oil (solvent based) wash but it should be okay over the Klear.
Cheers
Steve
M
m1ks
Guest
I can tell you from my brief tests with Alclad Chrome and Stainless steel that a clearcoat kills the effect instantly.
I sprayed a test piece and varnished half, the reflectivity just dissapeared.
As far as I can tell it's just not designed to be overcoated with anything and as Graham says, pre-shading is a moot point as you can't pre-shade gloss black.
The only possibility I can see is painting panels in alternate shades of grey which would give you a different end result.
I sprayed a test piece and varnished half, the reflectivity just dissapeared.
As far as I can tell it's just not designed to be overcoated with anything and as Graham says, pre-shading is a moot point as you can't pre-shade gloss black.
The only possibility I can see is painting panels in alternate shades of grey which would give you a different end result.
stona
SMF Supporter
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2008
- Messages
- 11,470
- Points
- 113
- First Name
- Steve
Yes,I should clarify that I tested aluminium,duraluminium and dark aluminium with Klear, NOT any of the highly polished finishes. With the ones I tested the difference before and after was very slight.\ said:
I would repeat that whatever Alclad say a gloss black undercoat is not vital UNLESS you plan to use one of the aforementioned highly polished finishes.
In my opinion a highly polished aluminium finish would be unlikely on a WWII service aircraft. They simply didn't look like the airshow queens we see flying today. It is virtually impossible to be sure whether many P-47 undersides are grey or natural metal,such is the lack of reflectance. That is not my opinion but that of a friend who is a proper expert on these aircraft. Also many front line fighters were waxed and polished,particularly by the Americans, and whilst giving a sheen it actually darkens an aluminium or painted finish. The 56th Fighter Group used locally acquired car polish.
Cheers
Steve
S
snapper41
Guest
Thanks to all so far. I've got Alclad aluminium; dark aluminium; white aluminium; and duraluminium, so will be doing panels different shades. It'll be Halfords grey primer first, Klear on top, and probably a Promodellers dark dirt wash to finish off.
Regarding the loss of reflectance after a clear coat. If you need to maintain the finnish on a polished metal, use the clear laquer sold by Alclad!!!!
The use of other clear finnishing products is unpredictable; affecting some more than others.
As far as pre shading goes, you may get a result by, for example priming in a dark grey, not just primer grey, almost a grey black then do the panel lines etc in black. There should be a sligh difference....
For post shading Steve gets the biscuit, I would say its the same as any other paint. A shade or two lighter in the panel centers, and or a couple of shades daerker around the panel.
A method I will have to try one day is the polished undercoat! Paint it shiny black then swipe the different panels in different directions with a polishing cloth. This will alter the refraction in the following top coat and the light will affect it. Thats the theory at least!
As far as washes go, I could imagine that once the surface has been sealed it would be bussiness as usuall.
The use of other clear finnishing products is unpredictable; affecting some more than others.
As far as pre shading goes, you may get a result by, for example priming in a dark grey, not just primer grey, almost a grey black then do the panel lines etc in black. There should be a sligh difference....
For post shading Steve gets the biscuit, I would say its the same as any other paint. A shade or two lighter in the panel centers, and or a couple of shades daerker around the panel.
A method I will have to try one day is the polished undercoat! Paint it shiny black then swipe the different panels in different directions with a polishing cloth. This will alter the refraction in the following top coat and the light will affect it. Thats the theory at least!
As far as washes go, I could imagine that once the surface has been sealed it would be bussiness as usuall.
stona
SMF Supporter
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2008
- Messages
- 11,470
- Points
- 113
- First Name
- Steve
Bingo! I do feel that the Alclad II finishes need de-mystifying! I've always treated them the same as any other paint. I'm a mister anyway,I like to build my paint up gradually,so I even spray the stuff exactly like anything else.\ said:
The only thing that has ever caught me out is it's lack of surface tension. If you try and pour it out of the bottle into your paint cup you will ruin another pair of trousers. I use a pipette now having learnt the hard way!
Cheers
Steve
LOL! Funny I have only spilt one drop and up to now I have just poured it out of the bottle.
I sprayed all the bottle tops the other day 'cause I was fed up with having to lift them out of the box to see what was what. Seing them all side by side, you sure get a sence of how a NMF aircraft will look.
Ian M
I sprayed all the bottle tops the other day 'cause I was fed up with having to lift them out of the box to see what was what. Seing them all side by side, you sure get a sence of how a NMF aircraft will look.
Ian M
B
Bunkerbarge
Guest
I find this a very interesting thread guys as, I have to admit, I've never used Alclad. Possibly the subjects that attract me all tend to be more of a heavily weathered variety but there is a very interesting world of metallic finishes out there. Maybe one day I'll feel brave enough.
stona
SMF Supporter
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2008
- Messages
- 11,470
- Points
- 113
- First Name
- Steve
T
T. van Vuuren
Guest
Here is my take on a good MNF - I work with full size planes and rarely as they as shiny or as clean as we tend to make them.
The thing with alclad on full size is that is has a destinct grain from the mill prosess.Diferent alloys also have a slight collour difference to it.
I agree with Steve that a gloss black underneath is not nesessary.Remember one thing about the real Alclad sheet. It is designed to make a microscopic layer of pure alluminium corotion on the surface. This stops the rest of the sheet to corode.Alluminium does not corode to a shiny state, it is actually rather dull.
What I did on the F-15 was to paint different pannels with normal humbrol silver and alluminium.Then you mask off the pannels and lightly scuff the area in one direction with scochbrite to get the grain texture.
I think it looks good enough for me.
Theuns
ps Steve , that 262 looks good!
View attachment 29400
View attachment 29401
The thing with alclad on full size is that is has a destinct grain from the mill prosess.Diferent alloys also have a slight collour difference to it.
I agree with Steve that a gloss black underneath is not nesessary.Remember one thing about the real Alclad sheet. It is designed to make a microscopic layer of pure alluminium corotion on the surface. This stops the rest of the sheet to corode.Alluminium does not corode to a shiny state, it is actually rather dull.
What I did on the F-15 was to paint different pannels with normal humbrol silver and alluminium.Then you mask off the pannels and lightly scuff the area in one direction with scochbrite to get the grain texture.
I think it looks good enough for me.
Theuns
ps Steve , that 262 looks good!
View attachment 29400
View attachment 29401
T
T. van Vuuren
Guest
Sorry, I meant F-51. Also, remeber where the plane was stationed. In a place like the far east it might corode in a different manner than in the UK or Africa
Theuns
Theuns