Another can of worms................

[Dave Ward]

I've been printing 1/72 British tanks 1917-1939, and now I'm painting - quite a simple task - I thought!!!
The interwar tanks seem to have been painted a Dark Green ( Deep Bronze Green? ), but from what date isn't clear ( 1921-ish).
It's what came before - I've printed a Mk V, Gun Carrier Mk I, Whippet, Hornet, Mark VIII & Mark IX. What colour were they painted originally? One of those questions that has many answers - Forest Green, Dark Green, Khaki-Green, Khaki-Brown, Dark Brown, Mid-Brown - each has its' supporters. Of course, in the field, they may have been repainted ( with whatever was available ). Any survivors have been restored & repainted, so analysis of underlying paint samples may be misleading. Apparently paint standards weren't introduced until 1918 - before then, loose descriptive terms were applied - premixed paints were uncommon - linseed oil & dry ingredients were mixed, both by weight & volume as needed.
Given I'm talking about tanks that were in use over 100 years ago, one of those puzzles that will probably never be solved!
Dave

 

[Airborne01]

I've been printing 1/72 British tanks 1917-1939, and now I'm painting - quite a simple task - I thought!!!
The interwar tanks seem to have been painted a Dark Green ( Deep Bronze Green? ), but from what date isn't clear ( 1921-ish).
It's what came before - I've printed a Mk V, Gun Carrier Mk I, Whippet, Hornet, Mark VIII & Mark IX. What colour were they painted originally? One of those questions that has many answers - Forest Green, Dark Green, Khaki-Green, Khaki-Brown, Dark Brown, Mid-Brown - each has its' supporters. Of course, in the field, they may have been repainted ( with whatever was available ). Any survivors have been restored & repainted, so analysis of underlying paint samples may be misleading. Apparently paint standards weren't introduced until 1918 - before then, loose descriptive terms were applied - premixed paints were uncommon - linseed oil & dry ingredients were mixed, both by weight & volume as needed.
Given I'm talking about tanks that were in use over 100 years ago, one of those puzzles that will probably never be solved!
Dave

Dave
From my experience Deep Bronze Green was used in the '60s '70s, and was replaced by IRR Green towards the end of the '70s. Deep Bronze Green often appeared low-gloss when in use - it persisted in in some items like pumps, generators etc up to the early '80s and was also not uncommon in some TA units for some time thereafter.
Steve

 

[Miko]

Yep, you're right, although I'm more into aircraft but the problem is the same. deciding on the right paint colour is subjective at best because there is no definitive answer for the reasons you have described already. I stopped stressing about this a while ago when I read about 'scale effect' this is where the atmosphere alters the perception of colour, if you paint a 1/72 scale model and the real thing in the exact same colour and place the real thing 72 times further away so they appear the same size, your model will appear darker! This is how 'scale effect' alters light perception,

This go me thinking about colour perception, any colour appears different under different conditions, your tank for example is green, how you see that green depends where and when it is and how far away, in early morning sunlight and bright noon daylight that green won't appear the same, or if it's cloudy or foggy! Or what if the tank is wet from rain, that alters the colour too. atmospheric pressure affects colour perception also with a greater volume of air adding to scale effect. So accounting for meteorology is one thing to consider. What if it's night time, you can't see the colour at all! Ha!

Also as you say paint standards can be a bit vague too, there has to be tolerances between paint batches so they won't be exactly the same especially from different manufacturers. The quality of paint might be variable too, how long before it fades for whatever reason.

So, if I were you, I'd choose a colour which was used on your tank according to you favourite reference, you can't be certain it's exactly right but at the same time no one can be certain that it's wrong! and in the end, does it really matter?

When i used to paint cold war jets in air superiority grey, I used 'Halfords' grey primer, no one noticed, maybe those jets were that shade of grey?

Miko (imperfect, incomplete, impermanent)

 

[wasdale32]

Yep, you're right, although I'm more into aircraft but the problem is the same. deciding on the right paint colour is subjective at best because there is no definitive answer for the reasons you have described already. I stopped stressing about this a while ago when I read about 'scale effect' this is where the atmosphere alters the perception of colour, if you paint a 1/72 scale model and the real thing in the exact same colour and place the real thing 72 times further away so they appear the same size, your model will appear darker! This is how 'scale effect' alters light perception,

This go me thinking about colour perception, any colour appears different under different conditions, your tank for example is green, how you see that green depends where and when it is and how far away, in early morning sunlight and bright noon daylight that green won't appear the same, or if it's cloudy or foggy! Or what if the tank is wet from rain, that alters the colour too. atmospheric pressure affects colour perception also with a greater volume of air adding to scale effect. So accounting for meteorology is one thing to consider. What if it's night time, you can't see the colour at all! Ha!

Also as you say paint standards can be a bit vague too, there has to be tolerances between paint batches so they won't be exactly the same especially from different manufacturers. The quality of paint might be variable too, how long before it fades for whatever reason.

So, if I were you, I'd choose a colour which was used on your tank according to you favourite reference, you can't be certain it's exactly right but at the same time no one can be certain that it's wrong! and in the end, does it really matter?

When i used to paint cold war jets in air superiority grey, I used 'Halfords' grey primer, no one noticed, maybe those jets were that shade of grey?

Miko (imperfect, incomplete, impermanent)

Miko - you're absolutely right to say that the colour perception is influenced by the environment. You mentioned lighting but didn't talk about the background - put a green tank against a green background and the colour will APPEAR different to one placed against a black or red or yellow one. In these days of digital photography many people allow the camera or phone to automatically set the white balance and this can be massively skewed by the predominant colour in the image especially if that colour happens to be highly contrasting with the prime subject.

 

[Miko]

Miko - you're absolutely right to say that the colour perception is influenced by the environment. You mentioned lighting but didn't talk about the background - put a green tank against a green background and the colour will APPEAR different to one placed against a black or red or yellow one. In these days of digital photography many people allow the camera or phone to automatically set the white balance and this can be massively skewed by the predominant colour in the image especially if that colour happens to be highly contrasting with the prime subject.

Yep, how to account for optical illusions!! So if it's perfection to you others may see it differently, so how can you accept their advice?

Another thing I didn't mention was the paint itself, supposing you decide whatever colour is exactly the right shade after exhaustive research and all the variables accounted for, you're happy this shade is perfect! Say 'Deep Bronze Green', it's what I used last time I painted a tank, a Tamiya Chieftan. in Humbrol Hu75, lots of modelers agreed this was the right colour.

I'm not sure how many different paint manufacturers produce a British Army 'Deep Bronze Green' but I'd be surprised if they are all the same? And then there's the way it's applied, the base coat can make a difference, airbrushing over hand brushing. . . it's just too complicated to be too concerned over total accuracy

Miko (Last time I saw a Chieftan it was more Hu163!)

 

[Airborne01]

I am a disciple of the 'Looks OK to me Cult... ' Scale effect etc, what about individual perception of colour in the first place I wonder? My wife and I have similar visual acuity but her perception errs towards blue in the spectrum! (She's wrong, of course, but I haven't mustered the courage to argue with her ...)
Steve

 

[Miko]

I am a disciple of the 'Looks OK to me Cult... ' Scale effect etc, what about individual perception of colour in the first place I wonder? My wife and I have similar visual acuity but her perception errs towards blue in the spectrum! (She's wrong, of course, but I haven't mustered the courage to argue with her ...)
Steve

Yep, that too, all this colour accuracy, it's fallacy, no such thing

Miko (I don't argue with missus Miko either! she has the capacity to deny me the small pleasures in life!)

 

[Steve-the-Duck]

Not wanting to enter the 'resort to authority' fallacy here, but Dick Taylor in his Warpaint series (Vol.1) coins the term 'tank brown' for WW1. Using contemporary descriptions, and reference to some 'from life' watercolours, this is a 'drab', 'mud' or 'milk chocolate' brown, possibly a dark tan. This may have been applied in France, over the base grey coat, as some tanks show a light rectangle around the census number. Of course, there's mud and stuff on top of that
The green colour may have appeared with the Medium Mk. I entering service in 1922/3. Was stuff repainted in that coloiur, or was that Vickers own paint? The Experimental Mechanised Force is supposed to have started with what is CALLED deep bronze green, apparently a gloss finish, but then did all manner of camo schemes on top
ACI 175 of 1938 states that vehicles should be matt, implying they eeren't before then. But that's like the Admiralty instruction of 1903 that says all ships were henceforeward to be grey, when there are pictures of armoured cruisers at their commisuioning in 1901 being that colour and definitely not hull black and upperworks white
MTP20 of 1939 formalises the new G3 with disruptive G4/G5 camo schemes, but says the colours must 'be within 10% by eye' of the described standard. Talk about specifically vague!

So, 'worm can' knocked over and spread on the table

And just to muddy the waters even further, an experimental camo scheme for Vickers Mediums may have been either black and white or cream and red oxide!

Anyway, WW1. Tanks at home, probably grey of some sort; tanks in France, a brownish colour, probably of French manufacture?

 

[Jakko]

What colour were they painted originally?

Would the money you’re saving on buying kits by printing models yourself, stretch to getting yourself a Eurostar ticket to Brussels? Because you can see a Mk. V and a Whippet in their original paint in the Royal Museum of the Armed Forces and Military History there … Of course, those colours will not be quite the same as they were a hundred years ago, but looking at my photos of the museum’s Whippet, I would go with a darkish olive drab.

 

[Dave Ward]

I looked for piccies of the museum specimens.................

the Mark V in the background - looks a distinctly different colour!
Dave

 

[Jakko]

They’re clearly different, yes. I don’t appear to have taken any pictures of the Mk. V when I was there (in 2003 …) but comparing to the Whippet, I’d say something like Tamiya khaki, perhaps with some OD mixed in to darken it a little, might give you a good colour for it?

 

[Tim Marlow]

I looked for piccies of the museum specimens.................
View attachment 507604
the Mark V in the background - looks a distinctly different colour!
Dave

One of the reasons for this is that paint colours of the time were mixed from recipes using weighed pigment powder and binder. Getting two batches the same would be nigh on impossible using this method. Accurate colour matching of paints and dyes wasn't available until the mid nineteen eighties when the first computer controlled colour matching kit became available.

 

[Steve-the-Duck]

Whippet grey. Mark V brown. I refer the honorable gentleman to my previous answer

Of course, you COULD take into account fading over time, camera colour balance, museum repaints...

Or blow your mind with one of the 'Solomon' schemes

But is it just angle shadow that has that panel on the back of the Whippet so dark?

 

[Jakko]

That panel is so dark because:—



… it has taken the full impact of, IIRC, a 77 mm projectile.

 

[Steve-the-Duck]

Splash damage. Now THERE'S a weathering exercise for you

And yep, apparently grey over basic metal. On with the Halfords primer!

 

[Ian M]

Even black paint looks white if you light it enough.
As for the tank museums... An employee of the Bovinton was overheard at a DIY store buying paint. Just your ordinary everyday house paint suitable for out door use and metal.... What you painting? came the question from the staff member.
A tank
He grabbed a couple of two liter cans of off the shelf green and brown "they'll do"
Just because it is in a museum does not mean its the right colour. something unrestored and sealed in a light proof and airtight box might be close.

if it looks right and makes you happy, then its the right colour. Unless you are colour blind and need all the help you can get. (brown/green blindness is one of the more common forms. Ask how I know....)

 

[Dave Ward]

As I thought - another can of worms! - and to think of all the time and effort paint manufacturers put into getting exactly the right colour! It just confirms my view that if it looks good to my eyes - it's totally accurate (or I'm too tight to buy anymore paint )
Dave

 

[wasdale32]

As I thought - another can of worms! - and to think of all the time and effort paint manufacturers put into getting exactly the right colour! It just confirms my view that if it looks good to my eyes - it's totally accurate (or I'm too tight to buy anymore paint )
Dave

I totally agree - I often go a bit off-piste by mixing my own approximations to the "definitive" colours. In particular I hate to see a line-up of identical coloured vehicles when in real life they would all have different stories to tell and would show that in the different levels of oxidation and fading of the paint.

As far as colour perception goes - one interesting thing to do is visit a car showroom that has sample paint swatches and compare them to the cars on show.... then go into the car park and look how two cars in the same finish parked next to each other look at different angles - its surprising how different they can appear especially if one is shaded and the other in direct sunlight.

 

[Jakko]

And yep, apparently grey over basic metal.

The Whippet in Brussels definitely is not grey in (original) colour. Here is the interior of the door, which is painted the same as the outside:



Or the armour around the fuel tank:

 

[Miko]

Even black paint looks white if you light it enough.

Even the incredible properties of vantablack? Such a weird substance, it's so black it looks like a hole!

Although I take your point, a billion watt light bulb very well make vantablack appear white

As for the tank museums... An employee of the Bovinton was overheard at a DIY store buying paint. Just your ordinary everyday house paint suitable for out door use and metal.... What you painting? came the question from the staff member.
A tank
He grabbed a couple of two liter cans of off the shelf green and brown "they'll do"
Just because it is in a museum does not mean its the right colour. something unrestored and sealed in a light proof and airtight box might be close.

wow! is that true? or just an interesting anecdote?

if it looks right and makes you happy, then its the right colour.

Exactly that! Yep!

Unless you are colour blind and need all the help you can get. (brown/green blindness is one of the more common forms. Ask how I know....)

Ouch!

Miko (according to QI in ancient Greece there was no word for blue, the sky for example was 'bronze'!)