C
callmehobbes
Guest
Those figures are coming along very nicely. I think the general had a full zipped smock with a modified collar but can't find the photo I'm looking for. I'll keep searching.
ARNHEM: Major General R E URQUHART'S HIDE OUT HOUSE Zwarteweg 14
- Thread starter Richi72
- Start date
Hi Richi
My deduction is only going on best evidence. As there are only 2 possibilities (according to Concord - Frundsberg or 280) then the logical course would be to try and determine where these 2 units were at the time. Frundsberg's armoured vehicles were sent across the Lower Rhine to Nijmegen on the 18th. And, according to sources, 280 arrived on the 19th. What you have to consider (I think) is what 'arrived' means. Do they mean they appeared that instant or does it mean simply they were committed to battle. Is it possible that 280s vehicles massed in the area on the 18th and made a determined attack on 3rd Para Battalion on the 19th? To add further confusion to this (I'm well used to this sort of info now) I give you this snippet...
This says that Kampfgruppe Allworden (at the right time and place) had Stug IVs!
Confused? Unfortunately this is the way of things with this kind of research. One tends to think that a few tanks can be accounted for and forget how many vehicles were actually involved. It's nice to get photographic evidence that you can pin a regiment down to (in time and place), but this is rarely the case.
It's frustrating I know. I'll continue to dig and see if I can bring anything more concrete to the proceedings.
Please bear in mind (everyone), this is a discussion and not a statement of fact.
Cheers (sorry!)
Paul
My deduction is only going on best evidence. As there are only 2 possibilities (according to Concord - Frundsberg or 280) then the logical course would be to try and determine where these 2 units were at the time. Frundsberg's armoured vehicles were sent across the Lower Rhine to Nijmegen on the 18th. And, according to sources, 280 arrived on the 19th. What you have to consider (I think) is what 'arrived' means. Do they mean they appeared that instant or does it mean simply they were committed to battle. Is it possible that 280s vehicles massed in the area on the 18th and made a determined attack on 3rd Para Battalion on the 19th? To add further confusion to this (I'm well used to this sort of info now) I give you this snippet...
This says that Kampfgruppe Allworden (at the right time and place) had Stug IVs!
Confused? Unfortunately this is the way of things with this kind of research. One tends to think that a few tanks can be accounted for and forget how many vehicles were actually involved. It's nice to get photographic evidence that you can pin a regiment down to (in time and place), but this is rarely the case.
It's frustrating I know. I'll continue to dig and see if I can bring anything more concrete to the proceedings.
Please bear in mind (everyone), this is a discussion and not a statement of fact.
Cheers (sorry!)
Paul
S
steve scan
Guest
This is fantastic work.
C
callmehobbes
Guest
Hi. I'm struggling to find any info on which unit was outside the house. If it was 280 then they had 3 zugs (platoons). 1. And 3. zugs had 7.5 cm stug lll Aust G' s. 2. zug had three 10.5cm StuH 42's and there was a final StuG lll for the unit commander. It seems all 10 SS StuGs were committed south of the Rhine.
C
callmehobbes
Guest
Also have you had a look at this site ;
http://www.paradata.org.uk/
http://www.paradata.org.uk/
Hi Richi/Hobbes
Just cross referenced a couple of things. The Stug IVs above are Jagdpanzer IVs which now makes more sense. Although no photographs of these vehicles exist there are reports confirming their presence in the Arnhem/Oosterbeek area. Concord also affirm this in the book. And there is enough ref on Kampfgruppe Allworden to say 2 jagdpanzer IVs were there.
If the Stug is not from 280 (and I'm beginning to think it wasn't) then it could either be a Stug III from 10SS or a Jagdpanzer IV attached to Kmpfgr Allworden (again from 10SS) returning from it's deployment around Oosterbeek very early in the battle.
This is beginning to make more sense. I think a possible explanation is that the Panthers/Pz IVs of 10SS were sent across the Rhine toward Nijmegen leaving the SPs around Arnhem.
The problem is that things around the 17/18/19th Sept are happening very fast. Added to this is the fact that vehicles were attached to different units at various times then it becomes difficult to pin a particular vehicle down.
I'm more of the opinion now that the SP was either a Stug III (kampfgruppe Kraft) or Jagdpanzer IV (kampfgruppe Allworden) from 10SS. And I think you're right about 280 not being around until the morning of the 19th.
Now if the vehicle is a Stug III then there isn't much of a problem as many of the armoured vehicles in the area carried very little in terms of distinguishing markings. If it's a Jagdpanzer IV then obviously that's is more of an issue. I'm of the opinion that it's more likely to be a Stug III from kampfgruppe Kraft which was absorbed into kampfgruppe Spindler. My reasoning is simply one of numbers there's only accounts of 2 Jagdpanzer IV in 10SS and there are simply more Stug IIIs.
I'm assuming Richi that you're researching too. Hobbes - 10SS were committed South of the Rhine on the 18th (I mentioned it above). They crossed the Rhine over a pontoon bridge (obviously the road bridge was blocked by Frost's men) and headed to engage the allies at Elst/Nijmegen. Only elements were sent though and there are confirmed reports of Jagdpanzers in the Oosterbeek/Arnhem town area on the 17th as well as Stug IIIs attached to kmpfgr Kraft and then Spindler.
Is this helping any, I'm not sure!!!
Cheers
Paul
Just cross referenced a couple of things. The Stug IVs above are Jagdpanzer IVs which now makes more sense. Although no photographs of these vehicles exist there are reports confirming their presence in the Arnhem/Oosterbeek area. Concord also affirm this in the book. And there is enough ref on Kampfgruppe Allworden to say 2 jagdpanzer IVs were there.
If the Stug is not from 280 (and I'm beginning to think it wasn't) then it could either be a Stug III from 10SS or a Jagdpanzer IV attached to Kmpfgr Allworden (again from 10SS) returning from it's deployment around Oosterbeek very early in the battle.
This is beginning to make more sense. I think a possible explanation is that the Panthers/Pz IVs of 10SS were sent across the Rhine toward Nijmegen leaving the SPs around Arnhem.
The problem is that things around the 17/18/19th Sept are happening very fast. Added to this is the fact that vehicles were attached to different units at various times then it becomes difficult to pin a particular vehicle down.
I'm more of the opinion now that the SP was either a Stug III (kampfgruppe Kraft) or Jagdpanzer IV (kampfgruppe Allworden) from 10SS. And I think you're right about 280 not being around until the morning of the 19th.
Now if the vehicle is a Stug III then there isn't much of a problem as many of the armoured vehicles in the area carried very little in terms of distinguishing markings. If it's a Jagdpanzer IV then obviously that's is more of an issue. I'm of the opinion that it's more likely to be a Stug III from kampfgruppe Kraft which was absorbed into kampfgruppe Spindler. My reasoning is simply one of numbers there's only accounts of 2 Jagdpanzer IV in 10SS and there are simply more Stug IIIs.
I'm assuming Richi that you're researching too. Hobbes - 10SS were committed South of the Rhine on the 18th (I mentioned it above). They crossed the Rhine over a pontoon bridge (obviously the road bridge was blocked by Frost's men) and headed to engage the allies at Elst/Nijmegen. Only elements were sent though and there are confirmed reports of Jagdpanzers in the Oosterbeek/Arnhem town area on the 17th as well as Stug IIIs attached to kmpfgr Kraft and then Spindler.
Is this helping any, I'm not sure!!!
Cheers
Paul
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- Richard
Hi guy’s,
my brain is smoking like H…… if there’s anything left.
I think we agree that it wasn’t a StugIII from 280.
So found this text on (Waffen-SS. no)
On September 10, the order went out that the remnants of the Hohenstaufen Division, estimated at only 2,500 men or 20% of its original strength, were to be transferred to Germany for a complete refitting, handing over their weapons (including two batteries of field howitzers), vehicles and equipment to the sister division Frundsberg, which would stay in Arnhem and regroup. The men were on the point of leaving for the Reich by rail on September 17 when troops of the British 1st Airborne landed in the outskirts of Arnhem and near Nijmegen.
Under Model's orders, SS Battle Group (Kampfgruppe) "Harzer" was formed from the remnants of the Hohenstaufen Division. On the eve of the battle, Brittrich gave the following orders:
1. Division to reconnaissance in the direction of Arnhem and Nijmegen
2. Division to go into action at once, taking the Arnhem Bridge and destroying the enemy forces which have landed to the west of Arnhem at Oosterbeek.
This could mean that it is possible that 1 of the StugIII of 10th SS division Frundsberg was on that side of the Bridge because that is where the train station is.
See Picture
View attachment 91731
Like to know, what you guys think
Cheers Richi
my brain is smoking like H…… if there’s anything left.
I think we agree that it wasn’t a StugIII from 280.
So found this text on (Waffen-SS. no)
On September 10, the order went out that the remnants of the Hohenstaufen Division, estimated at only 2,500 men or 20% of its original strength, were to be transferred to Germany for a complete refitting, handing over their weapons (including two batteries of field howitzers), vehicles and equipment to the sister division Frundsberg, which would stay in Arnhem and regroup. The men were on the point of leaving for the Reich by rail on September 17 when troops of the British 1st Airborne landed in the outskirts of Arnhem and near Nijmegen.
Under Model's orders, SS Battle Group (Kampfgruppe) "Harzer" was formed from the remnants of the Hohenstaufen Division. On the eve of the battle, Brittrich gave the following orders:
1. Division to reconnaissance in the direction of Arnhem and Nijmegen
2. Division to go into action at once, taking the Arnhem Bridge and destroying the enemy forces which have landed to the west of Arnhem at Oosterbeek.
This could mean that it is possible that 1 of the StugIII of 10th SS division Frundsberg was on that side of the Bridge because that is where the train station is.
See Picture
View attachment 91731
Like to know, what you guys think
Cheers Richi
C
callmehobbes
Guest
I'm going through various texts to try and get a clearer answer. There are lots of contradictions and omissions to sift through. I'm actually enjoying looking at the facts with a critical eye.
I think that's entirely plausible.
The thing with kampfgruppe is that they are very fluid. Kampfgruppe (battle groups) are simply a collection of troops and vehicles organised into a fighting unit and varied in size massively, kmpfgr Splinder contained both Allworden and Kraft as an example and are simply named after the commanding officers. 10SS did not have that many SPs (4) and so I'm assuming the same vehicles popped up in many kampfgruppe - helping probe the perimeter at Oosterbeek as well as arresting the advance toward Arnhem. They went where situation dictated.
According to that map (I think I recognise it from an Osprey book) Harzer would be closest AND looking at the unit disposition markers it is clear that Harzer was armoured (the oval in the crossed box). However just to illustrate the discrepancies - Spindler also had armoured vehicles and that does not have the oval and those would have the same 17/18 Sept dates. My explanation is that the same vehicles operated under both kampfgruppe.
What it does go to confirm is that armoured elements of 10SS did stay north of the Rhine and engage the paras at Arnhem.
My opinion is that there were only 4 Stug IIIs and 2 Jagdpz IV that could fit the description 'self propelled gun' or 'Stug'. These busied themselves both at Arnhem and over toward Oosterbeek and the landing grounds. Who was in command of them at that particular time is fairly irrelevant. Odds are that the SP outside the house was a 10SS Stug III and had operated within a number of different kampfgruppe.
I'm fairly happy with that, what do you guys think?
Cheers P
Corrections: The Jagdpanzer IV are in fact 9th SS Hohenstaufen but still operated around Oosterbeek.
Also, reading another source, 10SS elements crossed the Rhine on the night 19/20 Sept
The thing with kampfgruppe is that they are very fluid. Kampfgruppe (battle groups) are simply a collection of troops and vehicles organised into a fighting unit and varied in size massively, kmpfgr Splinder contained both Allworden and Kraft as an example and are simply named after the commanding officers. 10SS did not have that many SPs (4) and so I'm assuming the same vehicles popped up in many kampfgruppe - helping probe the perimeter at Oosterbeek as well as arresting the advance toward Arnhem. They went where situation dictated.
According to that map (I think I recognise it from an Osprey book) Harzer would be closest AND looking at the unit disposition markers it is clear that Harzer was armoured (the oval in the crossed box). However just to illustrate the discrepancies - Spindler also had armoured vehicles and that does not have the oval and those would have the same 17/18 Sept dates. My explanation is that the same vehicles operated under both kampfgruppe.
What it does go to confirm is that armoured elements of 10SS did stay north of the Rhine and engage the paras at Arnhem.
My opinion is that there were only 4 Stug IIIs and 2 Jagdpz IV that could fit the description 'self propelled gun' or 'Stug'. These busied themselves both at Arnhem and over toward Oosterbeek and the landing grounds. Who was in command of them at that particular time is fairly irrelevant. Odds are that the SP outside the house was a 10SS Stug III and had operated within a number of different kampfgruppe.
I'm fairly happy with that, what do you guys think?
Cheers P
Corrections: The Jagdpanzer IV are in fact 9th SS Hohenstaufen but still operated around Oosterbeek.
Also, reading another source, 10SS elements crossed the Rhine on the night 19/20 Sept
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Hi Paul, Hobbes,
''(I think I recognize it from an Osprey book)'' yep it is Operation Market Garden.
i am happy with that too.
So should we say it was a Stug III:rolleyes: only the unit is not really clear and to be honest, I think we need a time machine for that
Thanks allot guy's, you know, Thanks again for the great help.
Cheers Richard
''(I think I recognize it from an Osprey book)'' yep it is Operation Market Garden.
i am happy with that too.
So should we say it was a Stug III:rolleyes: only the unit is not really clear and to be honest, I think we need a time machine for that
Thanks allot guy's, you know, Thanks again for the great help.
Cheers Richard
Hi Richi
I think the most compelling evidence is the quote from your reference. If we discount 280 then this narrows the search down to only 6 Self Propelled guns - 2 jagdpaner IVs and 4 Stug IIIs. There's mention of the jagdpanzers at Oosterbeek but not at Arnhem so I'm inclined to think that the vehicle was a Stug III.
If it is a 10SS Stug then it's a remnant from Normandy, probably an earlier version and may be without skirts (see Concorde ref on the one with missing wheels being dragged by the famo). But who's to say they didn't have the later version too. I think probably not but I couldn't say for certain and so I think you're good to go with later stug - saukopf etc,etc.
As for markings - the one being dragged has, I think (I'm at work, and this is from memory), a 3 digit number on the back of the fighting compartment. Usual 3 colour camo and is worse-for-wear.
Cheers
Paul
I think the most compelling evidence is the quote from your reference. If we discount 280 then this narrows the search down to only 6 Self Propelled guns - 2 jagdpaner IVs and 4 Stug IIIs. There's mention of the jagdpanzers at Oosterbeek but not at Arnhem so I'm inclined to think that the vehicle was a Stug III.
If it is a 10SS Stug then it's a remnant from Normandy, probably an earlier version and may be without skirts (see Concorde ref on the one with missing wheels being dragged by the famo). But who's to say they didn't have the later version too. I think probably not but I couldn't say for certain and so I think you're good to go with later stug - saukopf etc,etc.
As for markings - the one being dragged has, I think (I'm at work, and this is from memory), a 3 digit number on the back of the fighting compartment. Usual 3 colour camo and is worse-for-wear.
Cheers
Paul
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Hi Gavin,
I think once in a while with a special build you need to do that because, it should be looking authentic (like you Ducati build cracking job by the way.)
Thanks again for all the help guy's.
So here's a small update, 1 para got a head and started with the first Camo pattern for the German.
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So that's it for the moment, and as always critics, compliments & suggestions are most welcome.
Thanks for watching
Cheers Richi
I think once in a while with a special build you need to do that because, it should be looking authentic (like you Ducati build cracking job by the way.)
Thanks again for all the help guy's.
So here's a small update, 1 para got a head and started with the first Camo pattern for the German.
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So that's it for the moment, and as always critics, compliments & suggestions are most welcome.
Thanks for watching
Cheers Richi
C
callmehobbes
Guest
Looking good.
C
callmehobbes
Guest
Any updates?
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Hi all,
Sorry was busy building:D.
So here's a little update.
First i did some curtains for the houses then after that I needed to clean up the work space:eek:.
Then I took a couple of pictures of the house.
and after that i returned to painting figurines, still waiting for some aftermarket german heads, so please do not wonder if they are all without head, but here are some pictures.
Lots of pictures I hope they are self explaining, if not feel free to ask.
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Sorry was busy building:D.
So here's a little update.
First i did some curtains for the houses then after that I needed to clean up the work space:eek:.
Then I took a couple of pictures of the house.
and after that i returned to painting figurines, still waiting for some aftermarket german heads, so please do not wonder if they are all without head, but here are some pictures.
Lots of pictures I hope they are self explaining, if not feel free to ask.
View attachment 93070
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- Joined
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- Messages
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- First Name
- Richard
- Joined
- Sep 29, 2013
- Messages
- 1,209
- Points
- 113
- First Name
- Richard
