Somewhere in North Africa

[john i am]

Yeah and those who laugh 1st always laugh last!

 

[dubster72]

Oh I don't know mate , I'd agree with them laughing at the Tilly and the honey but that changed when the crusader was fitted with a 6 pounder it was more than a match for the panzer III and IV they had in the field at that time but then came the tiger I and they started laughing again

Well the Matilda was considered a tough nut to crack - only the 88 had any real success with it. But whilst the 6 pounder was a decent weapon & capable of piercing the P III & IV armour, the ' cavalry style ' tactics used by British armoured forces in North Africa made them easy pickings for the panzers.

 

[Alan 45]

Well the Matilda was considered a tough nut to crack - only the 88 had any real success with it. But whilst the 6 pounder was a decent weapon & capable of piercing the P III & IV armour, the ' cavalry style ' tactics used by British armoured forces in North Africa made them easy pickings for the panzers.

I can't argue with that the only thing I will say is I've read one say it had its merits and one say it didn't I suppose it's case of what the objective was at the time , it is a bit silly to charge in a straight line at the enemy though once he's got your speed and range its halos and wings time , might of worked better as a diversion tactic, get the enemy focused on the charging tanks and then hit them in the flank

 

[dubster72]

I think that back them the commanders considered tanks like horses, & didn't learn much from the German armoured tactics until much later in the war.


Unlike the Russians who learnt & did it back to the Hun in spades!

 

[Alan 45]

That's true which is probably why they switched to the cruiser tanks which were faster it's not a cavelry charge if you bobbing along like a mule

 

[aaron]

Oh I don't know mate , I'd agree with them laughing at the Tilly and the honey but that changed when the crusader was fitted with a 6 pounder it was more than a match for the panzer III and IV they had in the field at that time but then came the tiger I and they started laughing again

Surely there was at least a chuckle at the Churchill's after the Dieppe fiasco.

 

[Alan 45]

Surely there was at least a chuckle at the Churchill's after the Dieppe fiasco.

I wouldn't put the blame on the Churchill for dieppe it was a sound tank just slow , dieppe showed us how not to attack a beach but the big failure was its planning and the choice of beach

 

[aaron]

The Germans thought it was a ww1 surplus. I'm not blaming the failure of the raid on the Churchill, just pondering the reaction of the German troops to the design of the Churchill on the beach.

 

[Robert1968]

I am a great lover of the tank in any shape or form from the 1st type armoured tractor to the male and female tanks ( just reading about the development etc etc


From my ref the Matilda was not that well suited for the desert, I mean 6mph top speed in the desert and 16mph on the Tarmac? It won't take a good gunner long yo sight an 88 ( and they could cut steel like butter ) or was it tanks like Swiss cheese I'm not sure.


The turret and basic armour for the Matilda I would say for the era was adequate in design but like all British tanks we never had a big enough gun to put in the turret.


The 2 pounder or 40mm could take on the P3 or P4 but at close range and back to the slow speed of the Matilda could it get close enough to do real damage. The Afrika core were getting better tanks and field artillery to match the Matilda and many I believe were lost in "operation battleaxe"


Also it's lack of high explosive rounds was a downfall of the tilda.


It also had a bad steering system that broke down and on field reliability was not as the British had thought


The 6pounder was more effective gun but the turret had to be changed to support this bigger breech gun and with the Matilda turret being not the right size it was impossible to install this.


As we know by El Alamein the Matilda was phased out in favour of valentines and losses were not replaced


I have read that the Matilda scored well against the Italian armour early in the desert but poorly against the German armour once better German field guns were supplied.


She was a big heavy old brute but I believe her time was up by the outbreak of war in Africa

 

[Alan 45]

The Germans thought it was a ww1 surplus. I'm not blaming the failure of the raid on the Churchill, just pondering the reaction of the German troops to the design of the Churchill on the beach.

Can't argue with that I think anyone would have wondered what it was it was very long awkward looking thing and it was awkward it had no speed , I think at the time it was built was around it being hard to knock out making it tough but no good in the attack role

 

[Alan 45]

I am a great lover of the tank in any shape or form from the 1st type armoured tractor to the male and female tanks ( just reading about the development etc etc
From my ref the Matilda was not that well suited for the desert, I mean 6mph top speed in the desert and 16mph on the Tarmac? It won't take a good gunner long yo sight an 88 ( and they could cut steel like butter ) or was it tanks like Swiss cheese I'm not sure.


The turret and basic armour for the Matilda I would say for the era was adequate in design but like all British tanks we never had a big enough gun to put in the turret.


The 2 pounder or 40mm could take on the P3 or P4 but at close range and back to the slow speed of the Matilda could it get close enough to do real damage. The Afrika core were getting better tanks and field artillery to match the Matilda and many I believe were lost in "operation battleaxe"


Also it's lack of high explosive rounds was a downfall of the tilda.


It also had a bad steering system that broke down and on field reliability was not as the British had thought


The 6pounder was more effective gun but the turret had to be changed to support this bigger breech gun and with the Matilda turret being not the right size it was impossible to install this.


As we know by El Alamein the Matilda was phased out in favour of valentines and losses were not replaced


I have read that the Matilda scored well against the Italian armour early in the desert but poorly against the German armour once better German field guns were supplied.


She was a big heavy old brute but I believe her time was up by the outbreak of war in Africa

She was outdated there's no question about that , the Germans new you had to have speed plus power so the first bunch they produced were better in speed and power but as we realised this they new that had to get sacrifice speed , as you mentioned rob the Tilly couldn't upgrade its main gun so it was an obsolete tank but it did well for the Russians we sent them ours and they saw the war out so maybe tactics may have been its biggest problem

 

[Robert1968]

She was outdated there's no question about that , the Germans new you had to have speed plus power so the first bunch they produced were better in speed and power but as we realised this they new that had to get sacrifice speed , as you mentioned rob the Tilly couldn't upgrade its main gun so it was an obsolete tank but it did well for the Russians we sent them ours and they saw the war out so maybe tactics may have been its biggest problem

I agree with you there Alan. The main problem in warfare is always down to tactics "Dieppe" which has been mentioned here, not more the tank but the tactics. Underpowered as you say ( Aec bus engine ? ) poor Tilly


Here's another the swimming Sherman ( d day ) launched too soon ) sinks like a stone ( tactics.


I liked yourvquotecabout the Russians and the lend lease


I hate to say this but we dumped a lot of the dated stuff on the ruskies!!


The Americans gave us the Bell P-39 Airacobra, the RAF didn't like it so the Russians got it and proved it quie a match for some Germans.


What nay not work in one theatre works on another.


Don't get me wrong though Alan she was still a sexy tank and I still ain't built one but my birthday coming upland she's on the wish list along with a Churchill ,( will I get one or both ) only the wife can say that:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:


Robert

 

[noble]

Nice work on the crusader I have 2 of these in my stash, hope mine turns out as well when I get around to building them, could you not attach some polystyrene on the inside walls of the out post just to beef them up a bit?


scott

 

[Alan 45]

Nice work on the crusader I have 2 of these in my stash, hope mine turns out as well when I get around to building them, could you not attach some polystyrene on the inside walls of the out post just to beef them up a bit?
scott

Cheers Scott it's not a bad kit for its age , I have so much to do with this dio that I think I'll try and hide it instead of adding to it

 

[Alan 45]

I agree with you there Alan. The main problem in warfare is always down to tactics "Dieppe" which has been mentioned here, not more the tank but the tactics. Underpowered as you say ( Aec bus engine ? ) poor Tilly
Here's another the swimming Sherman ( d day ) launched too soon ) sinks like a stone ( tactics.


I liked yourvquotecabout the Russians and the lend lease


I hate to say this but we dumped a lot of the dated stuff on the ruskies!!


The Americans gave us the Bell P-39 Airacobra, the RAF didn't like it so the Russians got it and proved it quie a match for some Germans.


What nay not work in one theatre works on another.


Don't get me wrong though Alan she was still a sexy tank and I still ain't built one but my birthday coming upland she's on the wish list along with a Churchill ,( will I get one or both ) only the wife can say that:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:


Robert

What we couldn't improve we dumped , could you imagine what we could have done if we had the money the yanks had

 

[dubster72]

What we couldn't improve we dumped , could you imagine what we could have done if we had the money the yanks had

Hmm " Mi lord, I submit the Cromwell & Comet armoured vehicles as proof that even after being aware of more advanced tank design, such as the Russian T-34 or the German Panther, British designers still stuck with antiquated features such as rivets, low velocity main guns & ignored such innovations like sloped armour."


The prosecution rests "

 

[Snowman]

Hmm " Mi lord, I submit the Cromwell & Comet armoured vehicles as proof that even after being aware of more advanced tank design, such as the Russian T-34 or the German Panther, British designers still stuck with antiquated features such as rivets, low velocity main guns & ignored such innovations like sloped armour."

Isn't that typical:rolleyes:. Was it not a British General that wrote about the concept of "Blitzkrieg", this was completely ignored and adopted by the Germans and residing the British militarists decided that tanks should only move as fast as Infantry on foot - probably a bunch of out of date old farts from WWI who were still polishing up their lances and sabres for one more charge on their horses!


The same goes for jet propulsion...... , scary isn't it?:eek:

 

[john i am]

Ok ok ok so we had some inferior armour but by god we had some bloody brave soldiers who against all the odds eventually kicked the Hun all the way back to Berlin eventually.So enough already about the crap tanks etc lets hear it for those who fought and lost their lives in these things.God bless them all

 

[Alan 45]

Hmm " Mi lord, I submit the Cromwell & Comet armoured vehicles as proof that even after being aware of more advanced tank design, such as the Russian T-34 or the German Panther, British designers still stuck with antiquated features such as rivets, low velocity main guns & ignored such innovations like sloped armour."
The prosecution rests "

I still think they looked better

 

[Alan 45]

Ok ok ok so we had some inferior armour but by god we had some bloody brave soldiers who against all the odds eventually kicked the Hun all the way back to Berlin eventually.So enough already about the crap tanks etc lets hear it for those who fought and lost their lives in these things.God bless them all

Round of applause for John