A question of scale.

[Gern]

I've been looking into some small scale stuff and have an issue with the quoted scales.

I know HO scale is 1/87 and OO scale is 1/76 and most railway stuff is a combination of the two - I believe trains and rolling stock are 1/87 but the track width is actually 1/76. Am I right in that?

My problem is with the trackside scenery and accessories. If it's quoted as HO/OO or OO/HO, what scale is it? I'm looking for stuff to go with 1/76 figures specifically. A 1/76 figure sat on a 1/87 bench for example is not going to look right. ( I remember as a kid comparing the Airfix 1/76 panther to the 1/87 Minitanks one and they were like chalk and cheese).

More specifically, I've looked at a lot of Faller kits and they have a good selection of what I'm looking for. I am worried that their OO/HO scale stuff won't go with 1/76 figures though. Am I worrying unnecessarily?

PS Just thought this might be better in the model trains section. Any chance one of the mods could move it for me if necessary?

 

[Tim Marlow]

I've been looking into some small scale stuff and have an issue with the quoted scales.

I know HO scale is 1/87 and OO scale is 1/76 and most railway stuff is a combination of the two - I believe trains and rolling stock are 1/87 but the track width is actually 1/76. Am I right in that?

My problem is with the trackside scenery and accessories. If it's quoted as HO/OO or OO/HO, what scale is it? I'm looking for stuff to go with 1/76 figures specifically. A 1/76 figure sat on a 1/87 bench for example is not going to look right. ( I remember as a kid comparing the Airfix 1/76 panther to the 1/87 Minitanks one and they were like chalk and cheese).

More specifically, I've looked at a lot of Faller kits and they have a good selection of what I'm looking for. I am worried that their OO/HO scale stuff won't go with 1/76 figures though. Am I worrying unnecessarily?

PS Just thought this might be better in the model trains section. Any chance one of the mods could move it for me if necessary?

Hi Dave
You are correct about the ratios for HO and OO scales. Continental outline railway stock is 1/87 scale bodies running on 1/87 scale track. British outline railway stock is a hybrid though. It is 1/76 scale bodies running on 1/87 scale track. Looks really strange head on, like it’s wearing corsets…..

Trackside stuff scales are usually related to the railway it is supposed to go with. Faller kits will be 1/87 to go with the HO scaled continental outline railway models such as Rivarrossi and Marklin, for example, while Hornby is scaled at 1/76 to go with their OO British outline stock.

The best fit for 1/76 figures will be anything labelled OO. Things labelled HO/OO tend to be in the middle the range, the early Airfix line side kits being a case in point. If you want continental stuff you would probably be better off looking at 20mm wargames stuff. That is pretty much the same as 1/76 scale, though most of the laser cut MDF stuff needs a bit of work to make it useable.

 

[minitnkr]

I agree w/Tim absolutely.

 

[Gern]

Thanks Tim. I knew someone would know!

So I should specify 1/76; OO scale or 20mm to make sure everything matches (close enough) to my 1/76 figures. Now I know what to look for.

These manufacturers don't make things easy for us do they? At least on the continent everything seems to be consistent at 1/87. Here we have two different scales on the same kits and it also seems that OO/HO is a mixture of scales. I guess the exact scale depends on which manufacturer you use?

What would we be saying if Tamiya put a 1/35 turret on a 1/32 tank? (Yes I know some parts are sometimes made slightly overscale due to mould/strength considerations). Can you imagine the uproar!?

 

[minitnkr]

One reason they were chalk & cheese was that some of the early ROCO was closer to 1/100 for some weird reason. The Panther was one.

 

[Mini Me]

Not just the Panther...there were several others in ROCO's early tool shed that were "small scale" 1-87. It wasn't until their third or fourth production run that they standardized on "true" 1-87 scale tooling. This has always mystified me, as they were right on the money when it came to their line of 1-87 scale railroad prototypes. Unfortunately they didn't correct their error and retool the sub scaled models until thirty plus years later.....and then only a couple, Tiger 700 series and PzKf. lV 105 series. By this time the rest had been dropped from production. I digress.....As Tim says, stay away from anything HO if you are working in 1-76 scale Dave.

 

[Tim Marlow]

Thanks Tim. I knew someone would know!

So I should specify 1/76; OO scale or 20mm to make sure everything matches (close enough) to my 1/76 figures. Now I know what to look for.

These manufacturers don't make things easy for us do they? At least on the continent everything seems to be consistent at 1/87. Here we have two different scales on the same kits and it also seems that OO/HO is a mixture of scales. I guess the exact scale depends on which manufacturer you use?

What would we be saying if Tamiya put a 1/35 turret on a 1/32 tank? (Yes I know some parts are sometimes made slightly overscale due to mould/strength considerations). Can you imagine the uproar!?

Railway modellers have been putting up with that for many, many, years Dave It’s spawned a plethora of progressively closer to scale modeller groups, especially in 1/76 (or 4mm/foot as we termed it). This may get confusing, so if you have a nervous disposition, look away now……

Track gauge for British outline stuff modelling in 4mm scale should be 18.83mm wide.

However, as far as I know, we have the following….all with 4mm/foot upperworks…..

There is OO, running on 16.5mm gauge track with really coarse flares on the wheels and much larger than scale rail section. Always looks toy like to me.

There is EM, running on 18mm track, better flanges and closer to scale rail section, but still looks a little wasp waisted head on…probably the best option for a large scale main line layout, however as a scale model it’s closer, but no cigar….

There is P4, running on scale width 18.83mm track, but with slightly larger than scale flanges and running on scale track section. Best compromise in my opinion….looks great and runs well when properly engineered….…the compromises are not visible. It does need flexible chassis‘ on the stock though.

……and the real hair shirt option, S4. Dead scale in all respect. Looks fabulous, but doesn’t run particularly well because gravity doesn’t scale down……

As far as I know, rolling stock is only available off the shelf in OO scale. Flexible track lengths are sold in OO, EM, and P4, and points etc can only be bought ready made in OO. There are, however, a huge range of scratchbuilding parts, jigs, drawings and gauges available to build any paintwork arrangement you could wish for, and they will look so much better than any off the shelf point that you wont believe it…..

 

[JR]

Railway modellers have been putting up with that for many, many, years Dave It’s spawned a plethora of progressively closer to scale modeller groups, especially in 1/76 (or 4mm/foot as we termed it). This may get confusing, so if you have a nervous disposition, look away now……

Track gauge for British outline stuff modelling in 4mm scale should be 18.83mm wide.

However, as far as I know, we have the following….all with 4mm/foot upperworks…..

There is OO, running on 16.5mm gauge track with really coarse flares on the wheels and much larger than scale rail section. Always looks toy like to me.

There is EM, running on 18mm track, better flanges and closer to scale rail section, but still looks a little wasp waisted head on…probably the best option for a large scale main line layout, however as a scale model it’s closer, but no cigar….

There is P4, running on scale width 18.83mm track, but with slightly larger than scale flanges and running on scale track section. Best compromise in my opinion….looks great and runs well when properly engineered….…the compromises are not visible. It does need flexible chassis‘ on the stock though.

……and the real hair shirt option, S4. Dead scale in all respect. Looks fabulous, but doesn’t run particularly well because gravity doesn’t scale down……

As far as I know, rolling stock is only available off the shelf in OO scale. Flexible track lengths are sold in OO, EM, and P4, and points etc can only be bought ready made in OO. There are, however, a huge range of scratchbuilding parts, jigs, drawings and gauges available to build any paintwork arrangement you could wish for, and they will look so much better than any off the shelf point that you wont believe it…..

Tim still confused , will stick to 1/35

 

[Tim Marlow]

Comes down to this John…..if you want a train set, use OO. If you want a scale model railway, you’ve got to work at it…..

 

[minitnkr]

.....and don't get me started on couplers......

 

[Gern]

Sheesh! This is as bad as the Olive Drab/Dunkelgelb situation! I don't have a nervous disposition but, boy oh boy, it's a good job I'm not building a railway!

Edit: Forgot to say thanks for all the help everyone.

 

[Tim Marlow]

Sheesh! This is as bad as the Olive Drab/Dunkelgelb situation! I don't have a nervous disposition but, boy oh boy, it's a good job I'm not building a railway!

Not only that Dave, but the acrimony between the groups was actually quite toxic at times. I was sworn at and mocked several times for just saying I was a P4 modeller at general exhibitions. Didn’t worry me, I just laughed and moved on. There are some very strange people in the model railway world, utterly self obsessed.
Never understood it myself though…..we were all just playing with toy trains…..I just used to go to exhibitions and look for the good bits and peruse the trade stands. It was much less stressful

 

[JR]

Comes down to this John…..if you want a train set, use OO. If you want a scale model railway, you’ve got to work at it…..

I did Tim, had the Hornby 00 three rail. A lot of fun, sold it to my mate who had a massive collection with his late father . Both members of the the Hornby preservation soc. His dad had some early 0 gauge Hornby, including some French produced stations. Had it set up in a room in their house .Every year that had an open day for their out side track, people would bring a variety of engines driven by steam , meths powered. Unfortunately both dead now , hopefully the sets have gone to good homes .

 

[Gern]

Not only that Dave, but the acrimony between the groups was actually quite toxic at times. I was sworn at and mocked several times for just saying I was a P4 modeller at general exhibitions. Didn’t worry me, I just laughed and moved on. There are some very strange people in the model railway world, utterly self obsessed.
Never understood it myself though…..we were all just playing with toy trains…..I just used to go to exhibitions and look for the good bits and peruse the trade stands. It was much less stressful

Thank goodness we don't get any of that c**p here!

 

[minitnkr]

My experience w/model railroaders over 65yrs has been overwhelmingly positive here in the US, in both O & HO guages.

 

[adt70hk]

Not only that Dave, but the acrimony between the groups was actually quite toxic at times. I was sworn at and mocked several times for just saying I was a P4 modeller at general exhibitions. Didn’t worry me, I just laughed and moved on. There are some very strange people in the model railway world, utterly self obsessed.
Never understood it myself though…..we were all just playing with toy trains…..I just used to go to exhibitions and look for the good bits and peruse the trade stands. It was much less stressful

Thanks for the above explanation Tim.

I actually went to an exhibition last weekend, my first every one and was surprised at all the different scales. I, like most people my age, had a Hornby layout (still in the the loft BTW).

I only went because my wife works for the church we go to.. It's not a nice looking building at all as it's a large converted warehouse. Whilst the outside is a non-descript box, the inside has been converted into a modern, multipurpose conference centre - not at all 'churchy' but immensely practical. She is actually the Conference Centre Manager, which is how I found out about it.

The main auditorium can seat almost 600 people plus another large hall next door and so there was plenty of room for all manner of layouts and trade stands...everything from O gauge and possibly larger down to N gauge. It did take me down memory lane!!

As for "very strange people", you're not wrong......very strange is an understatement!

It had been agreed that the exhibitors could come in the day before and set up and then gain access to the building at 8am on the morning of the show.

That though was apparently not good enough for one exhibitor who decided to force open a door early so that he and a number of cronies could set up!! That's right, he broke into the building!

Now, the last time I checked breaking and entering was a criminal offence.....and by the time my wife got there 10 minutes ahead of the 8am entry, the alarm was going off and any number of exhibitors were setting up.....

....oh and they had taken it upon themselves to call the security company and say everything was ok........very strange people as you say!!

ATB

Andrew

 

[Tim Marlow]

Now that’s new. I’ve never heard of that before . I think your wife must be pretty tolerant, because I would have told the miscreant and his cronies to sling his hook and take his layout with him. Not only that, if the security company had taken their word that nothing was amiss and hadn’t investigated I may well look for another. It’s exactly the same as burglars telling the security company not to worry isn’t it.
Must say though, I ran the local P4 and EM group (Sarum Finescale, still going I think) for a number of years in the nineties when I was a member, and they were a great bunch of guys with none of these tendencies. Very like this forum in fact! I only gave it up because I lost interest in modelling and became a born again guitarist.
Last word, I know we don’t criticise others work on here, and long may it continue, but the ones I found were worst at the interpersonal stuff were not actually very good modellers….

 

[adt70hk]

I think my wifge was taken aback....if that had been me I would told him to sling his hook.....I did used to be one of the trustees a few years ago and if I had still have been one I think I would have been very tempted to throw my weight around.

She did have words with the security company.....there is a process to verify the caller and they did not follow it......as you say they could have been anyone!

Thanks again for the info on the scales.....the most coherent - and understandable - explanation I have come across.

ATB

Andrew

 

[Jakko]

if the security company had taken their word that nothing was amiss and hadn’t investigated I may well look for another.

That was exactly my first thought. A security company that just believes a random caller on their word is not one you want to give your money to. The company should have phoned a number supplied to them by their customer to tell them an alarm has gone off.

 

[stillp]

She did have words with the security company

I'd have had words with them - two words, the second being 'off'!

Pete