Fuselage roundel position?

[Cooperman69]

Hi,

This may be a strange or even silly question but I've got to ask it anyway

The RAF roundels on the side of a Spitfire, Hurricane, etc fuselage, is there an official set position for them?

The reason I ask is that when fitting the squadron marking letters, sometimes the letters are so large it leaves little space for the roundels to line up evenly either side of the fuselage.

So basically do you fit the roundels in their respective position either side of the fuselage lining up adjacent to each other and then try to arrange squadron letters around them, or is their poetic licence so the roundel and letters line up evenly along the side of the fuselage but the roundels are then not adjacent to each other either side of the fuselage?

Tried to search pictures on the web but still not clear to me.

Atb,

Colin.

 

[andygh]

Good question, I'd be interested to know the answer to that too

 

[stona]

The roundels (and serial number) were applied at the factory along with all the other stencils. There was a set position for all these markings, including the national markings (roundels, fin flash) and I have the drawing for the Spitfire somewhere.

Squadron codes were applied later and so would fit around the national markings. Nothing was to intrude onto the national markings and that includes wing walkway lines!

Here's a couple of pics of the Castle Bromwich factory which gives an idea of when they were applied and the scale of the operation.





Cheers

Steve

 

[tecdes]

Colin I bet if you could go back in time the forman & painter in the factory stood looking at a Spitfire with a sheaf of papers from the air ministry scratching heads & posing that very same question.

Should we phone the ministry, they suggest, or should we, as you aptly put it Colin, award it poetic licence or is it perhaps artistic licence.

Matter of interest who inspected the aircraft to ensure they obeyed all the laid down "you should do this" etc. ?

Laurie

 

[stona]

There were MAP (Ministry of Aircraft Production) inspectors in all the factories. They could and would reject anything that was not up to standard.

I spoke with a lady (now no longer with us) who stitched the fabric onto the early elevators and she remembered several (if not all!) her early attempts being rejected. She had previously worked in a grocer's shop and had no previous experience of the work she was doing "for the war" and was a bit frightened of the inspectors who had a reputation for being very strict and rigorous.

Cheers

Steve

 

[Cooperman69]

Thanks chaps, just the info. I was looking for.

Sometimes the model plans leave a lot to be desired. I try to match up the squadron markings with panel lines but it just will not line up as per drawing. So at least I know now that the roundels go on first and in a specified position and the squadron letters are made to fit after.

Steve, you mentioned that the roundels must not be overlaid with any other markings like the walk way lines on top of the wings. But on a Techmod decal sheet I have here it shows the underwing roundels being overlaid with the "steadying trestle location" decal?

Any idea what's right?

Atb.

 

[stona]

It probably happened with the larger under wing roundels.

I can't find a war time example on my computer but this restoration may represent what might have happened. You can change the size of the roundel but you can't move the position of the ribs above the trestle points!



The problem went away with the introduction of a smaller under wing roundel.



And a Seafire in a spot of bother!



Cheers

Steve

 

[Cooperman69]

Thanks Steve

Good point about not being able to move the trestle points with the larger roundels, makes total sense when someone points out the blindingly obvious sometimes , couldn't see the wood for the trees.

Atb,

Colin.

 

[cutandfold]

Maybe this will help?

Someone gave this to me when I was working on the Beer Truck Spitfire.

I don't know where it came from, but I'll credit the author who is listed on the page.

©James Goulding.

View attachment 64517

As far as I know, the letter codes were positioned wherever they fit best

and were usually resized by the painter.

The goal was to paint them as large as possble for visibility.

The Spitfire shape does not allow for all codes to stay in horizontal alignment.

and, I think the code is always in order,

so the right side of the plane was a more awkward looking placement of the letters.

Squadron code first (2 letters usually) and then the aircraft code.

View attachment 65715

 

[tecdes]

Remarkable all that detail & in war time not only to produce it but for the factories to follow it.

Laurie

 

[ojays]

'There were MAP (Ministry of Aircraft Production) inspectors in all the factories. They could and would reject anything that was not up to standard.'

As an apprentice I hated my 'CLERK OF WORKS' with his white overalls and white cotton gloves and little pocket mirror!

Now I am older and I see the quality (or lack of it) of 'so called proffesional' work produced by some, I realise why he existed!

Gregg

 

[tecdes]

You are right Gregg. Unfortunately a great deal of craftmanship has disappeared.

My Father was a carpenter & joiner & for instance when fixing skirtings not mitering he would sribe each piece in the corner over the other. Tight fit no cracks.

He employed a carpenter & would stay on after the guy had gone home & remedy where he considered it was not up to standard.

Appears now some of those trusted to eversee cannot be trusted "a fine kettle of fish".

Laurie

 

[Cooperman69]

"and, I think the code is always in order,

so the right side of the plane was a more awkward looking placement of the letters.

Squadron code first (2 letters usually) and then the aircraft code."

This is an interesting point as I thought the same with regard to the Squadron code/aircaft code being in order, but following delivery this morning of my Techmod decals of Lt. Jan Zumbachs Spitfire MkVb, 303 Sq (Techmod No. 48005) it shows the Squadron/aircraft numbers being in order on one side but in reverse on the other? Basically it has RF D on port side and D RF on starboard? and it's the same for all 3 model options in the kit.

Did some squadrons use the same order whereas others chose to rearrange?

Atb, Colin.

 

[stona]

Did some squadrons use the same order whereas others chose to rearrange?

Atb, Colin.

In a word.....yes!

Some squadrons did "get it wrong". It's always worth trying to find a good reference for both sides of an aircraft or at least aircraft in the same squadron.

Cheers

Steve

 

[cutandfold]

In a word.....yes!Some squadrons did "get it wrong". It's always worth trying to find a good reference for both sides of an aircraft or at least aircraft in the same squadron.

Cheers

Steve

This is something always I strive to do when putting out a new model.

Find actual photos of the actual plane for reference.

I have heard from "experts", "historians" and even aging Pilots who all think they

know ...and often get it wrong!

One thing I have learned is that regardless of directives and regulations,

when it leaves the factory anything can happen! ...and usually did!

I notice with other aircraft, the codes are reversed, but you see most Spits

with the Squadron codes to the left, and the aircraft code to the right (of either side roundel).

But I don't suppose this was a directive, rather than a habit with a lot of groups.

I apologize if I may have suggested an inaccuracy.

I haven't found a photo of RF-D yet, but heres another 303 squadron aircraft

with the mirrored codes. I would assume that most, if not all 303 aircraft had

the codes in the same order?

Keep in mind this aircraft is now flying, as a re-creation.

Often, inaccurately recreated markings and paint schemes become the reference.

And model makers and decal makers use the current well recognized appearances.

Notice that the Polish decals could be wrongly positioned?

 

[cutandfold]

well, how about this then!!

last plane in the photo...

Note the aircraft code, on the fuselage, across the ident stripe. [EN 951]

The re-creation does not carry this (since it may not be the original plane).

and this is a nice shot of the cockpit side markings...

View attachment 64523

View attachment 65721

 

[Cooperman69]

Superb info. guys, thanks very much for your help.

Love the old black and white picture, might have to print and frame it over the model when it's finished.

Atb,

Colin.

 

[stona]

you see most Spitswith the Squadron codes to the left, and the aircraft code to the right (of either side roundel).

Those darned Poles again!



We know that the other side was D*RF



Errrr!



611 Sqn.



You really have to check. There is no easy rule.

Cheers

Steve

 

[cutandfold]

LOL I think I must have seen every Spit that went against this

up until now...now they all look proper.

LOL I'll learn to keep my mouth shut!

so we know, that camouflage was applied at the factory per spec

(I actually have photos of the carboard templates used to apply the paint)

and the roundel decals were applied at the factory per specification.

However early versions of the yellow outlines were handpainted onto existing roundels.

But squadron codes and other designations were applied in the field to no standard specification

other than the High Command wanted letters in the same colour as the ident stripe and "as large as possible for best visibility".

Best thing is when you can actually find a vintage photo that answers your question!

Now that I have all this material I must add RF-D to my paper model catalog!!

 

[stona]

You are right.

Not just squadron/aircraft codes either. Both the underside colours and national markings changed several times in the 1939-1941 period. Roundels came and went as did their yellow surrounds, fin flashes appeared, the list goes on.

Aircraft already in service would have adjustments made on the squadron with, shall we say, inconsistent results

Other aircraft already in the supply chain might be altered at an MU and usually to the letter of the AM order. Oddly it was the factories which seem to have been slowest to react to the changes.

Cheers

Steve