RAF market garden question

[T. van Vuuren]

I have a client who's dad flew Dakotas in both D-day and Market garden for the RAF (SAAF)


I have a copy of his log boob stating "24 March '45 Dakota # K9-558 - operations . Tug. Horsa glider-invasion across Rhine"


Would this plane have been the standard RAF green over grey? WOuld it have the full invasion stripes all over or by this time only on the bottom?


I assume that a Dakota Mk3 and a C-47 would visiually be very close?


Thanx


Theuns

 

[stona]

I have a day off tomorrow and should be able to give you some details of the markings for that operation. Invasion stripes as per Overlord had been deleted by this time.


The March 45 crossing of the Rhine was Operation Varsity. Market Garden was the earlier debacle at Arnhem.


Cheers


Steve

 

[stona]

Horsas, other British gliders and tugs (Halifaxes, Stirlings) wore their standard Dark Earth/Dark Green over whatever camouflage. I don't know about the Dakotas. None of them wore any invasion stripes, these had been deleted by an order of 6th December 1944, to be carried out by 31st December.


Cheers


Steve

 

[rickoshea52]

Although the stripes may have gone by the time of Op. Varsity if the aircraft had them during D-day service it is possible that traces of them remained with a different shade of paint where they would have been painted over, I've seen this modelled and it looks quite good.


Are you certain about the aircraft serial number? Does the log book have the Sqn number he flew the sortie with?

 

[T. van Vuuren]

The serial # is correct, the log does not state witch sqn, I will have to find out some more.


Theuns

 

[T. van Vuuren]

the logbook entry looks just like this one - 

 

[flyjoe180]

K9-558


http://www.ukserials.com/


That serial would come in a line of numbers corresponding to Fairey Battles which of course is incorrect.


He may have used a lower case G, in which case KG558 lies inside the Dakota III serial number series from KG310 to KG809. The number 558 would certainly not fit into the KJ or KK Dakota IV serials, so I think it is KG558. C-47A-20-DK 42-93258


A quick search shows that aircraft ended up post-war in Argentina with Aerolineas Argentinas, then to the Argentine Air Force.

 

[rickoshea52]

K9-558


http://www.ukserials.com/


That serial would come in a line of numbers corresponding to Fairey Battles which of course is incorrect.


He may have used a lower case G, in which case KG558 lies inside the Dakota III serial number series from KG310 to KG809. The number 558 would certainly not fit into the KJ or KK Dakota IV serials, so I think it is KG558.

I agree about the serial number, there was something not quite true to me.

 

[rickoshea52]

By searching "KG558 Dakota" some interesting leads come up. According to https://paradata.org.uk/people/peter-clarke this aircraft took part in Operation Market Garden with 512 Sqn prior to the Rhine Crossings. After the war it returned to US ownership then to Argentina and was destroyed in 1968.

 

[T. van Vuuren]

Now that is some interesting feedback, thanx allot guys.


I looked at the log entry and it does seem you are correct that the "9" was infact a "g"


My interpretation of WW2 style writing was flawed LOL.


Now that we have this sorted, I understand that the invasion markings by time of Varsity would have been removerd. What was the standard practice to do this - were they washed off or overpainted?


Theuns

 

[stona]

That log book clearly states that the aircraft flown on Varsity was a Halifax. There is no serial in the book, just the individual aircraft letter.


You are lucky that your man filled in his serial. I've seen log books with one or both options (including my own father's!)


"The Wooden Sword-the untold story of the gliders in WW2" by Lawrence Wright is a book I would reccomend, covering the development of airborne/glider operations throughout the war. 'Varsity' didn't happen until virtually the end of the war and there is not much in the book about it. I've scanned a couple of pages to give a flavour of the book.


Cheers


Steve

 

[T. van Vuuren]

Thanx Steve.


I will post a pix of the logbook I am working from. This guy first flew in Burma then went to the UK where he flew during D-day aswell.


Any info on how the stripes were removed from the planes?


Theuns

 

[stona]

Any info on how the stripes were removed from the planes?


Theuns

I depended how they were applied. Aircraft already in service at the time of Overlord had all sorts of different applications. Some 'distempers' could be washed off easily whereas some other paints were not so easily removed. Some were, as someone mentioned above, over painted, but I've only seen clear evidence for this on American aircraft. That doesn't mean it didn't happen elsewhere .


Any aircraft that entered service after December 6th 1944 would never have had stripes applied. That would certainly apply to many if not most of the gliders and any newer tugs.


Cheers


Steve

 

[T. van Vuuren]

Cool thanx Steve. Pity though, the stripes break up the large mono tone green look of the RAF dak's.


Theuns

 

[T. van Vuuren]

Here is a copy of the logboox , interesting on the 12-13 March is says "Glider tug - airtests"


I see now he was with 512 Sqn. SAAF pilot but "on loan" the the RAF


I found this interesting pig of a 512 Dak ofloading what appears to be liberated POW's. It still has the invasion stripes on the bottom fuse, I wonder if this was between D-day and Varsity maybe?


When did POW's start comming home? They myst by that time have been housed in the consentration camps?


Theuns

 

[stona]

He must have been one of the 1,500 'RAF' pilots seconded to fly gliders due to the shortage in the Glider Pilot Regiment. British glider pilots, unlike their US contemporaries, were fully trained infantry soldiers and were expected to fight once they had landed the glider. Your man should have received some rudimentary infantry training before becoming a glider pilot, Wright mentions a three week course, but that would not have made him close to an effective infantry soldier. He probably received some basic training, enough to prevent him being a liability to himself or his comrades! The most dangerous rifle on the battlefield might be the one in the hands of the man next to you, particularly if he is an RAF pilot, barely trained as an infantry soldier


On the 12th he towed a glider in some kind of practice, 'local' means exactly that, local to the base. On the 13th he performed an air test on the aircraft mentioned, that is also self explanatory. The aircraft may have undergone some maintenance which required it to be test flown.


I can't see the picture of the Dakota and PoWs. 


Cheers


Steve

 

[T. van Vuuren]

Steve, this guy was a SAAF (RAF) Dak driver


Here is that pic of the POW's Note the stripes under the fuse of KG 330

 

[stona]

Yep, got a bit confused there


I don't know when that photograph was taken or who the  prisoners are. Invasion stripes should have been gone by 1945, but who knows. The first concentration camps were not liberated by the western allies until April 1945, though the Soviets had liberated others in mid 1944.


A few PoWs did end up in concentration camps, but they were exceptions, most were held in camps run by the relevant arm of the Wermacht. For example, allied airmen taken prisoner became the responsibility of the Luftwaffe


Cheers


Steve

 

[T. van Vuuren]

When were the pow's mostly liberated frm the Wermacht camps? Before Varsity?


Would the russians have handed allied pow's over to the UK even by '44?

 

[stona]

I don't think many would or could have been, they were mostly in Germany.


I don't know off the top of my head, but there were problems getting US and UK PoWs liberated by the Russians home.


Cheers


Steve