Airborne01
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Behave ...!On your what?
The mind boggles
Special Hobby 1/32 Fiat G.50 COMPLETED
- Thread starter stona
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That has turned out very nice indeed Steve.
Steve-the-Duck
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Steve, if you're doing the RAF test flown CR42, re-coded BT474, I've a couple of extra pictures. One is a rear view and one from below. Both show a replacement rudder in a different scheme, and also, oddly, the fabric panel may be off another aircraft rather than simply painting out the codes and Gruppo badge.
The Orfordness CR42 has so many odd details about it, both before and after it got into RAF hands
The Orfordness CR42 has so many odd details about it, both before and after it got into RAF hands
That’s turned out great Steve, loved the build thread, and also the finished walk around photos.
stona
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Anything would be helpful and very much appreciated. The only research I can do is online as I literally have no references for Italian aircraft at all! I'm beginning to wonder what possessed me to embark on this voyage of discovery
What has surprised me is how adamant many, including some Italians, are that these aircraft were all in the three colour camouflage scheme with a grey underside. People like me, who have spent a lot of time (and money) on the Luftwaffe learn never to be so sure of themselves! I really don't know about the upper camouflage, Tim (Marlow) and I are obviously seeing different things in the same photo which just illustrates the point, in a gentlemanly fashion I hasten to add. If two CEARs noted silver undersides then they must have looked a lot like aluminium dope, as would have been familiar to the RAF officers writing the reports. I suppose a light grey is just about feasible, but in my view unlikely. Unfortunately, B&W images will be of no help in deciding.
At the moment it's a toss up between going off piste and taking a stab at the 'British' CR.42 or doing one based in Sicily. I like Sicily, it's the last place the Fuhrerin and I had a proper break before Covid, so there is that!
Steve-the-Duck
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Steve, when you decide on the scheme, I'll be there. Sure I've got at least ONE photo of a CR42 in Sicily. Flicks through page after page...
As to the Orfordness CR42, I've seen one version of the reports that say 'silver-grey' underside, but that isn't what it ACTUALLY says in the text. Likewise, photos from Ursel, the base in Belgium, do show two, slightly different darker blotches on the sand. Another picture shows the struts apparently the same colour as the fuselage, when they're supposed to be the same as the underside.
Supposed to be.
I've got one photo from Orfordness that shows the bottom of both wings. But they're in shadow. However the roundels stand out plain as anything. 'Officially' in tjhe wake of Spanish and Ethiopian experience, the three plus one schemes were adpted in June 1940. That's the date of the documentation. Which often means 'what we're already doing now has been noticed by the higher-ups, so everyone else join in'
So, what colours was the Orfordness 'plane?
And why was it number 13, and the other one crashed on the same day 16, when Squadriglia numbers are only SUPPOSED to go up to 12?
Officially
My partner was a photographer in the RAF so he knows all about lighting effects on film. His favourite, and aposite quote about 'planes is the Fench pilot, a trained artist, who described FW190s as 'looking like trout in a stream'. How's that for colour interpretation?
As to the Orfordness CR42, I've seen one version of the reports that say 'silver-grey' underside, but that isn't what it ACTUALLY says in the text. Likewise, photos from Ursel, the base in Belgium, do show two, slightly different darker blotches on the sand. Another picture shows the struts apparently the same colour as the fuselage, when they're supposed to be the same as the underside.
Supposed to be.
I've got one photo from Orfordness that shows the bottom of both wings. But they're in shadow. However the roundels stand out plain as anything. 'Officially' in tjhe wake of Spanish and Ethiopian experience, the three plus one schemes were adpted in June 1940. That's the date of the documentation. Which often means 'what we're already doing now has been noticed by the higher-ups, so everyone else join in'
So, what colours was the Orfordness 'plane?
And why was it number 13, and the other one crashed on the same day 16, when Squadriglia numbers are only SUPPOSED to go up to 12?
Officially
My partner was a photographer in the RAF so he knows all about lighting effects on film. His favourite, and aposite quote about 'planes is the Fench pilot, a trained artist, who described FW190s as 'looking like trout in a stream'. How's that for colour interpretation?
stona
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This is the text of the report on the Suffolk (Lowestoft) CR.42.
“11 November, 14.50 hours nr. Coulton Railway station, Lowestoft.
85 crest 16, blue outlined in black containing owl and three white arrows pointing slightly downwards. Across the top right hand corner is written ‘OCIO CHE TE COPO ’, (“Beware, I’ll kill you”, in Venetian slang) followed by the figure 16. Figures in grey blue shadowed in black. Beyond the markings is a blue disc containing one fasces in gold. On the rudder is a white cross of a crucifix shape with the Italian royal coat of arms in a small shield at the top of the cross. Markings on wing, white disc on top plane containing three fasces in black. Upper surface muddy brown with green blotches, under surface silver. Propeller blue, spinner green with yellow band. Yellow engine cowling. MM6976 airframe number, engine Fiat A74R1/c38, 2 row 14 cylinder radial, constant speed three blade airscrew. Two machine guns mounted under engine cowl firing through airscrew arc. Port machine gun 7.7mm, starboard 12.7mm, 800 7.7mm and 200 – 300 12.7mm left. Reflector gun sight. No armour fitted, no bomb gear. Petrol tank self sealing, no wireless fitted. Aircraft force landed following fighter action. Three strikes port tail plane, three in rudder, five in starboard side of fuselage. Strikes from astern and above, none appear to be vital. Hit top of railway embankment and skidded into ploughed field wiping off undercarriage and damaging lower plane. Dispatched to Farnborough."
The Orfordness CR.42 report is generally similar and states.
"Camouflage, upper surfaces mottled greenish yellow, under surfaces silver. The airscrew blades pale blue with black backs."
My bold in both cases.
My argument is that silver is silver and the officers that wrote this knew what it looked like.
I never knew that the two machine guns were of different calibres! Again, this is not something in which the examining officer would have made an error and is noted in both reports.
I've also found a much better image of the Orfordness CR.42, taken whilst still on its nose with an airman sat on the upper wing giving a double thumbs up. Oddly it is in one of my Luftwaffe references (Luftwaffe Crash Archive Vol.6, p 689) and also features at lower resolution on the cover. I can't see three colours
Unfortunately the Italian reports have not been digitised at the TNA, so if you can't find them elsewhere it's a visit (which might be possible now) or VERY expensive.
“11 November, 14.50 hours nr. Coulton Railway station, Lowestoft.
85 crest 16, blue outlined in black containing owl and three white arrows pointing slightly downwards. Across the top right hand corner is written ‘OCIO CHE TE COPO ’, (“Beware, I’ll kill you”, in Venetian slang) followed by the figure 16. Figures in grey blue shadowed in black. Beyond the markings is a blue disc containing one fasces in gold. On the rudder is a white cross of a crucifix shape with the Italian royal coat of arms in a small shield at the top of the cross. Markings on wing, white disc on top plane containing three fasces in black. Upper surface muddy brown with green blotches, under surface silver. Propeller blue, spinner green with yellow band. Yellow engine cowling. MM6976 airframe number, engine Fiat A74R1/c38, 2 row 14 cylinder radial, constant speed three blade airscrew. Two machine guns mounted under engine cowl firing through airscrew arc. Port machine gun 7.7mm, starboard 12.7mm, 800 7.7mm and 200 – 300 12.7mm left. Reflector gun sight. No armour fitted, no bomb gear. Petrol tank self sealing, no wireless fitted. Aircraft force landed following fighter action. Three strikes port tail plane, three in rudder, five in starboard side of fuselage. Strikes from astern and above, none appear to be vital. Hit top of railway embankment and skidded into ploughed field wiping off undercarriage and damaging lower plane. Dispatched to Farnborough."
The Orfordness CR.42 report is generally similar and states.
"Camouflage, upper surfaces mottled greenish yellow, under surfaces silver. The airscrew blades pale blue with black backs."
My bold in both cases.
My argument is that silver is silver and the officers that wrote this knew what it looked like.
I never knew that the two machine guns were of different calibres! Again, this is not something in which the examining officer would have made an error and is noted in both reports.
I've also found a much better image of the Orfordness CR.42, taken whilst still on its nose with an airman sat on the upper wing giving a double thumbs up. Oddly it is in one of my Luftwaffe references (Luftwaffe Crash Archive Vol.6, p 689) and also features at lower resolution on the cover. I can't see three colours
Unfortunately the Italian reports have not been digitised at the TNA, so if you can't find them elsewhere it's a visit (which might be possible now) or VERY expensive.
Steve-the-Duck
SMF Supporter
I'm with you on the CAER guy being correct with silver underside, but I've always wondered why. What can be seen of the undersides of other 'planes at Ursel, all that can be said is they're a dull, matt colour. And grey undersides started to become 'standard' from 1938. About the time the CR42 entered service. And 2 years before the regulations!
Unless it's explained by the high aircraft number, meaning, maybe it was a squadron hack? The intel report says that the pilot, Sergente Salvadori, was quite happy to have been captured and be out of the war as, I think the quote is, 'he had little faith in the leadership.' Ahack with an unreliable pilot might also explain two colours...
Stories of particular 'planes are always more interesting than simply, 'what colour was it'?
Now, where's that pic of 95-13 underside...
Ill looking for a good Sicily photo...
Unless it's explained by the high aircraft number, meaning, maybe it was a squadron hack? The intel report says that the pilot, Sergente Salvadori, was quite happy to have been captured and be out of the war as, I think the quote is, 'he had little faith in the leadership.' Ahack with an unreliable pilot might also explain two colours...
Stories of particular 'planes are always more interesting than simply, 'what colour was it'?
Now, where's that pic of 95-13 underside...
Ill looking for a good Sicily photo...
Andy the Sheep
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If I may add further entropy, 
there is at least one pic of a G50 in Maldegen (Belgium), sporting a very ragged livery, worn down to the naked metal surface. Maybe the same happened to the lower wing surface of that CR 42...
In any case, as far as I know, the grey under-surface of the wings of the Regia Aeronautica was light and really with a silver-ish shade. Here is my reference (for discussion purposes only)
and here some sample about how silver-ish (drawing and MC205 pic) and worn (RE200O PIC) could the Grigio Mimetico (Mimetic grey) look like
Hope I didn't open a can of worms...
.
Just in case... Steve, if you think appropriate, I can ask for more details to a friend of mine whose passion for all wingy things, and those of Regia Aeronautica in particular, is second to none.
Andrea
there is at least one pic of a G50 in Maldegen (Belgium), sporting a very ragged livery, worn down to the naked metal surface. Maybe the same happened to the lower wing surface of that CR 42...In any case, as far as I know, the grey under-surface of the wings of the Regia Aeronautica was light and really with a silver-ish shade. Here is my reference (for discussion purposes only)
and here some sample about how silver-ish (drawing and MC205 pic) and worn (RE200O PIC) could the Grigio Mimetico (Mimetic grey) look like
Hope I didn't open a can of worms...
.Just in case... Steve, if you think appropriate, I can ask for more details to a friend of mine whose passion for all wingy things, and those of Regia Aeronautica in particular, is second to none.
Andrea
stona
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Thanks for that Andrea.
One of my options is for an aircraft of the same squadron (83-1), so that image and profile are very handy. There are clearly three colours in the camouflage which makes that a lot easier!
I'm still struggling to understand why two different RAF intelligence officers looking at two different crashed enemy aircraft would write that the undersides were silver and not light grey, blue-grey, even silver grey or whatever. They knew what an aluminium silver dope looked like because they were familiar with that finish on our own aircraft.
I know from my Luftwaffe researches that there is a tendency to discount such reports, and they were not always accurate, but silver is silver, not grey. One of the aircraft was standing on its nose, so the officer who wrote the report was afforded a good and clear view of the under surfaces!
If I go with a grey it will have to be a LOT lighter than any of the official Italian colours, because in my mind's eye it would have to convince a neutral observer that it looked at the very least 'silver-ish'.
One of my options is for an aircraft of the same squadron (83-1), so that image and profile are very handy. There are clearly three colours in the camouflage which makes that a lot easier!
I'm still struggling to understand why two different RAF intelligence officers looking at two different crashed enemy aircraft would write that the undersides were silver and not light grey, blue-grey, even silver grey or whatever. They knew what an aluminium silver dope looked like because they were familiar with that finish on our own aircraft.
I know from my Luftwaffe researches that there is a tendency to discount such reports, and they were not always accurate, but silver is silver, not grey. One of the aircraft was standing on its nose, so the officer who wrote the report was afforded a good and clear view of the under surfaces!
If I go with a grey it will have to be a LOT lighter than any of the official Italian colours, because in my mind's eye it would have to convince a neutral observer that it looked at the very least 'silver-ish'.
stona
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I found an interesting description of CR.42s operating over Malta. These had a camouflage comprised of a Havana (light tobacco brown) background with green and chestnut brown mottle over silver/aluminium under surfaces. This sounds much more like the scheme on the CR.42 that force landed near Lowestoft. The CEAR describes this as, "Upper surface muddy brown with green blotches, under surface silver."
The scheme on the CR.42 examined on the beach at Orfordness was described as, upper surfaces mottled greenish yellow, under surfaces silver. So that probably had the 'Giallo Mimetico' background colour with the Verde Mimetico mottled over it. Whether the third colour, Marrone Mimetico, was also applied remains a bit unclear. I am now convinced that the lower surfaces were indeed 'silver'.
I'm becoming more convinced that the received wisdom, that these aircraft had grey under surfaces in 1940 is far from correct and that some at least still had both silver/aluminium under surfaces and the darker camouflage scheme (with the 'Havana' base colour).
The scheme on the CR.42 examined on the beach at Orfordness was described as, upper surfaces mottled greenish yellow, under surfaces silver. So that probably had the 'Giallo Mimetico' background colour with the Verde Mimetico mottled over it. Whether the third colour, Marrone Mimetico, was also applied remains a bit unclear. I am now convinced that the lower surfaces were indeed 'silver'.
I'm becoming more convinced that the received wisdom, that these aircraft had grey under surfaces in 1940 is far from correct and that some at least still had both silver/aluminium under surfaces and the darker camouflage scheme (with the 'Havana' base colour).
Charlie Delta Foxtrot
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Love that paint! Great work!
stona
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Thanks for being so nice about the model and also thanks to those who have given their time and made the effort to help an ignoramus such as myself have a better understanding of Italian camouflage.
Unfortunately the CR.42, which I was planning to start this week, has been put on hold. The reason, however, is quite exciting...
One of these is on the way!
I'll start a thread once it hits the doormat.
Unfortunately the CR.42, which I was planning to start this week, has been put on hold. The reason, however, is quite exciting...
One of these is on the way!
I'll start a thread once it hits the doormat.
Andy the Sheep
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Booking a first row seat for that thread. I'm considering to add it to my shelf as it's one of my favourite aircraft.
stona
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I've been watching this for some time, waiting for it to finally be released. I've always loved the Whirlwind, and it's something I know something about
I've had a look at the kit options, and Special Hobby have made a bit of a mess of their aircraft identification on two of the four. It's nothing that can't be fixed, and I'll explain it all when I start my build.
I'm a bit worried about the size of the model. The real one had a wingspan just over 45 feet (more than 8 feet/2,4m longer than a Spitfire!)
Steve-the-Duck
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Ooh, pretty!
