Yes me again, a ? for you riggers!

[BattleshipBob]

I know I have been a right pain and have bored the pants off you all! Really sorry!

Now the almost daily question!! Attaching the thread to a mast or antenna.

Am I correct in saying you attach the thread underneath the mast, where it's out of sight and can be touched up with paint OR try to attach on the edge of the masts, this to me is a right pain. Difficult to see hows it done on completed models, as I try to focus in it goes very blurry!

 

[Ian M]

Many ways of doing it, but only very few ways of doing it easy.
Large parts are easier. Standing wires; the ones that are fixed both ends are best put through an eye of some type, this however will involve tears drilling holes. An alternative is to 'but join' the tread to the mast and just use an eye at the bottom fixing.
Trying to superglue a very fine thread end on can be very testing. An OK cheat is to work in pairs. Tie the thread on the mast with a loop in the center of the tread and then take the ends down to the deck remember to glue off any knot to keep it in place.
Running lines, the ones that 'move' are normally in a block or pully of some form but in small scale hard to do! A blob of glue normally does the job over the knot!
The big problem is bulk. Even a very fine thread builds up when there are many going to the same place, so you need to try and be as tidy and as frugal as possible with it.
Signal wires, the ones for running flags up are always double and a simple knot around the mast/yardarm/pole at the top and each end down to a fixing.

You can buy eyes but much easier, and cheaper, to make them. I normally use a single strand of wire from off-cuts of multi-strand wire. a hook the size of the eye you want to make. A bit of piano (or brass) wire ground to a point works well. Put it in a pin vice. Bend the wire over the hook and hold the tails between finger and thumb. Twist the wire up using the hook. I make a length of about 20cm at a time all in a 'daisy chain' cut them off as needed. You might need to clean the wire (heat or solvent if it is treated).
A half millimeter drill to make the holes and CS to glue them in place.

Simple.

 

[Ian M]

Fun fact: For every twenty books on rigging period ships there is maybe a half a page on how to rig a 'modern' warship.

 

[BattleshipBob]

Many ways of doing it, but only very few ways of doing it easy.
Large parts are easier. Standing wires; the ones that are fixed both ends are best put through an eye of some type, this however will involve tears drilling holes. An alternative is to 'but join' the tread to the mast and just use an eye at the bottom fixing.
Trying to superglue a very fine thread end on can be very testing. An OK cheat is to work in pairs. Tie the thread on the mast with a loop in the center of the tread and then take the ends down to the deck remember to glue off any knot to keep it in place.
Running lines, the ones that 'move' are normally in a block or pully of some form but in small scale hard to do! A blob of glue normally does the job over the knot!
The big problem is bulk. Even a very fine thread builds up when there are many going to the same place, so you need to try and be as tidy and as frugal as possible with it.
Signal wires, the ones for running flags up are always double and a simple knot around the mast/yardarm/pole at the top and each end down to a fixing.

You can buy eyes but much easier, and cheaper, to make them. I normally use a single strand of wire from off-cuts of multi-strand wire. a hook the size of the eye you want to make. A bit of piano (or brass) wire ground to a point works well. Put it in a pin vice. Bend the wire over the hook and hold the tails between finger and thumb. Twist the wire up using the hook. I make a length of about 20cm at a time all in a 'daisy chain' cut them off as needed. You might need to clean the wire (heat or solvent if it is treated).
A half millimeter drill to make the holes and CS to glue them in place.

Simple.

Gordon Bennett Ian, bet your keyboard is in intensive care along with our typing finger!!

My god what have I started!!! Do you know where to get eyes?? Have bought some plastic rod from John to make up masts and to do a lot of practice

Really appreciate your excellent help and advice, many thanks Bob

 

[Ian M]

On a proper keyboard I can type quite well, both hands and all that. Lol
Like I said, I make eyes out of wire, just seem to always have bits of it laying around, the joys of renovating an older house.
Practice sounds like a good idea.

 

[BattleshipBob]

On a proper keyboard I can type quite well, both hands and all that. Lol
Like I said, I make eyes out of wire, just seem to always have bits of it laying around, the joys of renovating an older house.
Practice sounds like a good idea.

Both hands, what a man, me left only!!

Sorry Ian, do you have any photos of them or in place? Just for guidance? On modelwarships there's a tamiya 1 350 Yamato, the newer version. the rigging is astonishing

 

[Ian M]

As its you, I will make some up tomorrow and post a few pictures. I might be needing some soon anyway

 

[BattleshipBob]

As its you, I will make some up tomorrow and post a few pictures. I might be needing some soon anyway

Many thanks Ian, good of you

 

[rtfoe]

Looking forward to some pictures too...need eyes for my carronade trolleys.

Cheers,
Richard

 

[Ian M]

When I figure out how to take pictures and make eyelets at the same time I might even show how to make a pretty OK tow wire...
First COFFEE

 

[rtfoe]

Ah stimulants first...

 

[Ian M]

Right then.
First you are going to need some wire and a pin vice.
Here I have some 0,2 mm and some 0,1 mm copper wire, The hook in the pin vice is just a bit of 0,8 piano wire. It could be any size you like. Just make sure that the end is smooth so you can take the eyelet off once twisted up.


Start by bending the wire into a U over the hook. Do not make a loop!


Then grip the ends between thumb and finger. TIGHTLY.

Could not hole the wire, the pin vice and the camera, lol.
With the hook in the bend of the wire...

Turn the pin vice and the tails will twist together. Five or six turns are more than enough but make them as long as you like. they will need trimming anyway.


If you daisy chain them as above, you can make a load and cut them off as needed. Trust me its a lot easier to find the string of them WHEN it falls on the floor, than it is finding a single eye.

IMPORTANT!
Hold the wire as close to the hook as you can when you twist them up, then the eye will be neat and round and the twists even. If you get this:

You are holding them to far from the hook and the twist starts from the bottom. Twisting it more to get the eye round and the twists even normally results in a break.

A cup of coffee if that's your thing, a couple of bits of wire and you can knock 50 or so off in no time.
You can make them as thick or thin as you like, just be sure that the hook is beefy enough if you get near the 1mm mark in wire. And softening copper the wire helps.
Good sources for wires:
Any old electrical appliance with a flex, or "soft" cable. As for the fine wire, small electric motors and gauges are a good thing not to throw away.


I will just throw this in while I'm here cable! I got really miffed at the moulded cable in kits ot the string that you sometimes get in for example Tamiya armour.....

Find some fine wire, 0,1 works good for thinner cables, 0,2 for heavier ones.
As I am doing a rewire, I have loads of odd bits of flex from lights getting changed. The flex is great for this kind of stuff.

Start bu stripping the insulation off:

It's a good idea to leave the last cm on as it keeps the strands in one place!

Here I am using three strands and making three cords. If making a long cable I use a small electric screwdriver, but I did this one with the pin vice.
Make the three cords by twisting the three strands together. Hold the other end in a plires or a vice and twist CLOCKWISE until the whole length is wound tight.
Take the three cords and put them all on to the hook and hold them firmly, close to the hook. Let the other end be free.. Now twist them together ANTI-CLOCKWISE being sure to maintain a grip on the three (or more) cords. Again wind them quite tight.
You should end up with something like...


The tighter you can get them twisted the more close the throw.
If you like you can splice loop in the end or just double it back through a passable piece of brass tube and glue (or solder) it in place.
Hope this is helpful to some.

@Bobthestug You asked if I have a photo of them in use.
HMS HOOD 1/200

This picture show plenty of them. It also shows what happens when you put a lot of non-stretch thread on one yard arm
Please not this was made before they figured out she had a dark grey bottom! (Grrrr).

 

[boatman]

VERY well done Ian but for me when i want eyes to hold rigging on my ships i just nip into a fishin takle shop an i have bought severl eyes riggin holders for a couple of quid as normally about 10 in a pack an the eyelets are very thin wire but very strong but i know yours dont cost anything but for me i take the easy way out an the eyelets can be cut so they look like a hook to hook over the yard arm to hold the rggin wire in place an as my decks must be removeable to fitt the batts in them hooks come in very handy as all i have to do is just unhook the hook an the rigging wire just drops down onto the ship an when ive fitted the batt then just rehook them over the mast yardarm or such
chris b

 

[rtfoe]

O

Right then.
First you are going to need some wire and a pin vice.
Here I have some 0,2 mm and some 0,1 mm copper wire, The hook in the pin vice is just a bit of 0,8 piano wire. It could be any size you like. Just make sure that the end is smooth so you can take the eyelet off once twisted up.
View attachment 447603

Start by bending the wire into a U over the hook. Do not make a loop!
View attachment 447606

Then grip the ends between thumb and finger. TIGHTLY.
View attachment 447607
Could not hole the wire, the pin vice and the camera, lol.
With the hook in the bend of the wire...
View attachment 447608
Turn the pin vice and the tails will twist together. Five or six turns are more than enough but make them as long as you like. they will need trimming anyway.

View attachment 447609
If you daisy chain them as above, you can make a load and cut them off as needed. Trust me its a lot easier to find the string of them WHEN it falls on the floor, than it is finding a single eye.

IMPORTANT!
Hold the wire as close to the hook as you can when you twist them up, then the eye will be neat and round and the twists even. If you get this:
View attachment 447610
You are holding them to far from the hook and the twist starts from the bottom. Twisting it more to get the eye round and the twists even normally results in a break.

A cup of coffee if that's your thing, a couple of bits of wire and you can knock 50 or so off in no time.
You can make them as thick or thin as you like, just be sure that the hook is beefy enough if you get near the 1mm mark in wire. And softening copper the wire helps.
Good sources for wires:
Any old electrical appliance with a flex, or "soft" cable. As for the fine wire, small electric motors and gauges are a good thing not to throw away.


I will just throw this in while I'm here cable! I got really miffed at the moulded cable in kits ot the string that you sometimes get in for example Tamiya armour.....

Find some fine wire, 0,1 works good for thinner cables, 0,2 for heavier ones.
As I am doing a rewire, I have loads of odd bits of flex from lights getting changed. The flex is great for this kind of stuff.

Start bu stripping the insulation off:
View attachment 447611
It's a good idea to leave the last cm on as it keeps the strands in one place!
View attachment 447612
Here I am using three strands and making three cords. If making a long cable I use a small electric screwdriver, but I did this one with the pin vice.
Make the three cords by twisting the three strands together. Hold the other end in a plires or a vice and twist CLOCKWISE until the whole length is wound tight.
Take the three cords and put them all on to the hook and hold them firmly, close to the hook. Let the other end be free.. Now twist them together ANTI-CLOCKWISE being sure to maintain a grip on the three (or more) cords. Again wind them quite tight.
You should end up with something like...
View attachment 447613
View attachment 447614
The tighter you can get them twisted the more close the throw.
If you like you can splice loop in the end or just double it back through a passable piece of brass tube and glue (or solder) it in place.
Hope this is helpful to some.

@Bobthestug You asked if I have a photo of them in use.
HMS HOOD 1/200
View attachment 447616
This picture show plenty of them. It also shows what happens when you put a lot of non-stretch thread on one yard arm
Please not this was made before they figured out she had a dark grey bottom! (Grrrr).

Oh...I already have many eyes with the left over ends of the stanchion bits I made. As for the wire cable, the rope for the hammock netting was done the same way with brass wire twisted with a rotor tool.

I already know how to do eyes and thought you were making blocks and was looking forward to something like it. Would you know how its done. Been racking my brain and might just have to make a master and cast it.

Cheers,
Richard

 

[BattleshipBob]

Superb Ian, very easy to understand! Thank you very much for taking the time to do this, you deserved the coffee lol

Love the mighty Ood, when was it built? Would love to see more photos!

Now to show how thick I am, do you put the eyelet over the mast and attach the thread to the twisted wire by a small blob of CA or other way round

Thanks again, really appreciated your taking time to help

Bob

 

[Ian M]

I use them most for securing line to the decks and when there is room, to thicker mast points and things like funnel stays. If you zoom in a bit on the photo of the Hood you should be able to find some.
I drill a hole in the deck or mast glue in an eye and then rig to that.

Sorry for your misunderstanding Richard but I did say eyes and not blocks, not much used in WWII Battle canoe rigging. A few on the jibs and booms for lifting. On a period ship they are all over the place.

A good idea with the fishing tackle Chris, you might want to check out size 18 or 20 carbon steel carp hooks. They are very small, thin wire and very strong.

 

[JR]

Interesting method , much better explained with photos like that Ian .

 

[boatman]

I use them most for securing line to the decks and when there is room, to thicker mast points and things like funnel stays. If you zoom in a bit on the photo of the Hood you should be able to find some.
I drill a hole in the deck or mast glue in an eye and then rig to that.

Sorry for your misunderstanding Richard but I did say eyes and not blocks, not much used in WWII Battle canoe rigging. A few on the jibs and booms for lifting. On a period ship they are all over the place.

A good idea with the fishing tackle Chris, you might want to check out size 18 or 20 carbon steel carp hooks. They are very small, thin wire and very strong.

WELL Ian ive always used some tiny fishin gadgets dont know what they are called but they are like a dog lead holder an you can just push one side in an it ficks out so a wire can be hooked on to it an then the wire can be pushed back into the locked postion an these are very tiny an they can be cut down to a smaller size thats wanted an ive used these on all my ships
chris b

 

[Ian M]

Love the mighty Ood, when was it built? Would love to see more photos!

You can find the build and the completed thread under the GBs in the Battleship/destroyer GB from way back in 2017! Time fly's!
or just click on this link:

Ian M's Battleship/Destroyer GB: Jan - Dec 2017

Big bad War Canoe's 1/200 to 1/72 Any extras you like. No Assault ships Aircraft carriers.

www.scale-models.co.uk

 

[Airborne01]

O

Oh...I already have many eyes with the left over ends of the stanchion bits I made. As for the wire cable, the rope for the hammock netting was done the same way with brass wire twisted with a rotor tool.

I already know how to do eyes and thought you were making blocks and was looking forward to something like it. Would you know how its done. Been racking my brain and might just have to make a master and cast it.

Cheers

Richard,
There are commercial companies that produce rigging blocks (2,3,4 sheave) etc, and in all the shapes and sizes that were used. I'll dig out some info of you wish - otherwise build them up by laminating thin plasticard shaped section and (alternate) punched discs. I used this method back in the day, it works but it's intensely tedious! Score a shallow groove and CA a wire eye round the block to represent the rope becket.
Steve