Papa695s Mosquito GB chat thread

[Tim Marlow]

Hi all.
Just about to start my group build mosquito, and realise I need a rather vital bit of info….I know next to nothing about RAF bomber loads and bomb colours…..or even what marker flares looked like. Shocking I know, so here’s the question:

Does anyone have access to information on the bomb load carried by pathfinder mosquitoes?

I know Len Cheshire favoured a single marker flare, so what did it look like, where was it loaded, and what colour was it?

Plenty of info around regarding how 617 used these aircraft, but not much I can find on how they were configured….I would assume (might be wrong) the wing bombs were not carried, but the racks were kept, mostly because 617 used to nick it’s mosquitoes from wherever it could get them, so they would be needed when the planes were given back.
I assume they kept the nose guns in as well?

Cheers in advance….and if this thread is in the wrong place could one of the mods do the honours? I’ve posted it here because I’m building in the group build….

 

[AlanG]

Pathfinders were glass nosed mossies

 

[Tim Marlow]

Pathfinders were glass nosed mossies

Not this one Alan. 617 used FB Mk VIs. As I said, Cheshire used to borrow them After mossies were withdrawn from the squadron he used Mustangs scrounged from the Americans to do the same job.

 

[AlanG]

Well you live and learn Tim. I've always thought they used the glass versions for Pathfinding.

 

[Tim Marlow]

Well you live and learn Tim. I've always thought they used the glass versions for Pathfinding.

I think the official ones were…. using glass nosed bomber mosquitoes, but 617 wasn’t part of the pathfinder group. Cheshire “invented” low level marking while in charge of 617. Never one to follow stupid rules, he wanted to improve accuracy for pinpoint raids. Officially they were not allowed to mark at less than 5000 feet, but this didn’t give the necessary accuracy. He first trialled “dive bombing“ in Lancs, starting at 5000‘ , diving at 30 degrees, and dropping the marker at 100’. This was successful, but the Lanc wasn’t really suitable, so they switched to borrowed mosquitoes, then “procured” Mustangs. Some of the accuracy they obtained was simply staggering.

 

[stona]

Initially redundant 250 lb incendiary cases were used for Target Indicators. These were packed with 60 x 9" coloured candles. The purpose built 250 lb TI differed little from this.

The 1,000 lb TI was type designed from the outset and contained 200 candles.

Both types used a 3 oz ejection charge. This is what the Germans thought they worked, and they were right.



The charges actually became quite sophisticated. To obviate marking gaps, candles in later TIs (post1943) were designed with phased delays to increase overall burning time to 7 or 12 minutes. These were imaginatively known as TI long burning (TILB) and TI very long burning (TIVLB). Some of the candles in the 1,000 pounder were later set to burn for a phased period of 20 minutes. A proportion of all candles were fitted with explosive devices to deter firefighters from dousing them. Some TIs were filled with 210 flash units (red, green or yellow) which initiated coloured flashes at 1.5 second intervals. Yet another produced a series of short and long flashes at intervals of 20 seconds over a 24 minute period. These were not simple pyrotechnics!

A further development was the 250 lb 'Spotfire'. It contained a cotton bale, saturated in a solution of metallic perchlorate dissolved in alcohol. It produced a single spot of colour on the ground (red, green or yellow) which lasted for 15-20 minutes. It was first used on the famous Peenemunde raid. It was often used for route marking, though an obvious draw back was that they attracted German night fighters to the bomber stream.

Anyway, I digress. This is a 250 lb TI with a barometric fuse to set the altitude at which it would detonate, releasing the candles.



The 250 lb TI had an overall length of 73.6" (of which 27.2" was the tail) and a diameter of 12". It weighed 180 lbs.

The 1,000 lb TIs looked very much the same, but were obviously bigger.



This bomb had an overall length of 73.6" (53.6" body and 20" tail). The body had a diameter of 17" (the tail was 17.4"). Despite being classified as a 1,000 lb device it weighed just 730 lbs.

A Mosquito typically carried 4 X 250 lb TIs. No.8 (Pathfinder) Group aircraft rarely used the heavier 1,000 lb TI, though they were favoured by No.5 Group's low level marking Mosquitoes. I haven't found a load out, but I don't see why two could not be carried. Pathfinder Lancasters could carry 20 x 250 lb TIs, but often carried mixed loads.

I don't think Cheshire invented low level marking, though he was influential in its proving and adoption. No 5 Group developed the 'Controlled Visual Technique' in which proximity bombs and flares were used to guide low level Mosquitoes to very precisely mark the aiming point from low level. Cheshire did lead a number of raids, sometimes in a Mosquito, occasionally in a Mustang, on which he acted as the master bomber. During the work up phase No. 617 Squadron, a Lancaster squadron, had acquired a number of Mosquitoes to prove the 5 Group marking Technique. Having done so Harris was prevailed upon to let the Group have No 627 Squadron (Mosquitoes) and Nos. 83 and 97 Squadrons (Lancasters) on permanent loan from No.8 (Pathfinder) Group. It is important to understand that 5 Group was an almost independent organisation within Bomber Command (which caused not a little friction in some quarters), and that No 617 Squadron was an independent unit within it, having been formed on 21 March 1943 as a special squadron for Operation Chastise.

 

[Jim R]

That is very interesting Steve. Target marking was far more complex than you'd think.

 

[adt70hk]

Initially redundant 250 lb incendiary cases were used for Target Indicators. These were packed with 60 x 9" coloured candles. The purpose built 250 lb TI differed little from this.

The 1,000 lb TI was type designed from the outset and contained 200 candles.

Both types used a 3 oz ejection charge. This is what the Germans thought they worked, and they were right.

View attachment 458761

The charges actually became quite sophisticated. To obviate marking gaps, candles in later TIs (post1943) were designed with phased delays to increase overall burning time to 7 or 12 minutes. These were imaginatively known as TI long burning (TILB) and TI very long burning (TIVLB). Some of the candles in the 1,000 pounder were later set to burn for a phased period of 20 minutes. A proportion of all candles were fitted with explosive devices to deter firefighters from dousing them. Some TIs were filled with 210 flash units (red, green or yellow) which initiated coloured flashes at 1.5 second intervals. Yet another produced a series of short and long flashes at intervals of 20 seconds over a 24 minute period. These were not simple pyrotechnics!

A further development was the 250 lb 'Spotfire'. It contained a cotton bale, saturated in a solution of metallic perchlorate dissolved in alcohol. It produced a single spot of colour on the ground (red, green or yellow) which lasted for 15-20 minutes. It was first used on the famous Peenemunde raid. It was often used for route marking, though an obvious draw back was that they attracted German night fighters to the bomber stream.

Anyway, I digress. This is a 250 lb TI with a barometric fuse to set the altitude at which it would detonate, releasing the candles.

View attachment 458762

The 250 lb TI had an overall length of 73.6" (of which 27.2" was the tail) and a diameter of 12". It weighed 180 lbs.

The 1,000 lb TIs looked very much the same, but were obviously bigger.

View attachment 458774

This bomb had an overall length of 73.6" (53.6" body and 20" tail). The body had a diameter of 17" (the tail was 17.4"). Despite being classified as a 1,000 lb device it weighed just 730 lbs.

A Mosquito typically carried 4 X 250 lb TIs. No.8 (Pathfinder) Group aircraft rarely used the heavier 1,000 lb TI, though they were favoured by No.5 Group's low level marking Mosquitoes. I haven't found a load out, but I don't see why two could not be carried. Pathfinder Lancasters could carry 20 x 250 lb TIs, but often carried mixed loads.

I don't think Cheshire invented low level marking, though he was influential in its proving and adoption. No 5 Group developed the 'Controlled Visual Technique' in which proximity bombs and flares were used to guide low level Mosquitoes to very precisely mark the aiming point from low level. Cheshire did lead a number of raids, sometimes in a Mosquito, occasionally in a Mustang, on which he acted as the master bomber. During the work up phase No. 617 Squadron, a Lancaster squadron, had acquired a number of Mosquitoes to prove the 5 Group marking Technique. Having done so Harris was prevailed upon to let the Group have No 627 Squadron (Mosquitoes) and Nos. 83 and 97 Squadrons (Lancasters) on permanent loan from No.8 (Pathfinder) Group. It is important to understand that 5 Group was an almost independent organisation within Bomber Command (which caused not a little friction in some quarters), and that No 617 Squadron was an independent unit within it, having been formed on 21 March 1943 as a special squadron for Operation Chastise.

Wow!! Thanks so for an the info. Will have to read that a few times to take it all in.

 

[Tim Marlow]

I was hoping you’d read my request Steve Excellent explanation and comprehensive as always.

I suppose the only question left is what colour were they? Looks black in the picture, but they can be deceptive.

 

[The Smythe Meister]

I'm ashamed to say that I can't answer this Tim !!....
Even though i'm ex RAF,and served with 617, with Tornados in the first Gulf War,( we called ourselves "The SAD,DAM BUSTERS"..).
It seemed quite funny at the time
Although there wasn't a lot to laugh about at the time!!

 

[stona]

I was hoping you’d read my request Steve Excellent explanation and comprehensive as always.

I suppose the only question left is what colour were they? Looks black in the picture, but they can be deceptive.

The body of a TI bomb was painted black.

There is a 1/2" red 'filling band' 8" from the nose and a band around the nose plug indicating the colour of the candles. The other information (BOMB A/C TI 1000LB) etc was stencilled in white. The colour of the candles is obvious (RED), the X means that some explosive candles are included, this was stencilled in red.

There were a lot of different candles, going up to R, so I would guess that the L2 is an indication of the candle type (L types were white, no delay, explosive steel nose which would explode at the time the illuminant burned out).

I haven't even mentioned the TIs used for sky marking (Wanganui)

 

[Ian M]

I haven't even mentioned the TIs used for sky marking (Wanganui)

Go on then.

 

[Tim Marlow]

I'm ashamed to say that I can't answer this Tim !!....
Even though i'm ex RAF,and served with 617, with Tornados in the first Gulf War,( we called ourselves "The SAD,DAM BUSTERS"..).
It seemed quite funny at the time
Although there wasn't a lot to laugh about at the time!!

My 617 decal set has several Tornados on it as well……along with a Lancaster and a Mustang. Food for thought Andy….I’m not one for jets, but there’s always a first time…….love the squadron nickname as well.

 

[Tim Marlow]

The body of a TI bomb was painted black.

There is a 1/2" red 'filling band' 8" from the nose and a band around the nose plug indicating the colour of the candles. The other information (BOMB A/C TI 1000LB) etc was stencilled in white. The colour of the candles is obvious (RED), the X means that some explosive candles are included, this was stencilled in red.

There were a lot of different candles, going up to R, so I would guess that the L2 is an indication of the candle type (L types were white, no delay, explosive steel nose which would explode at the time the illuminant burned out).

I haven't even mentioned the TIs used for sky marking (Wanganui)

Cheers Steve. Bring it on mate, it’s fascinating to me and I’m sure to others. it amazes me what they could do with the crude technology of the times.

 

[stona]

Go on then.

Sky marking was used in various forms during the war. When the ground was not visible it was pointless marking at ground level where the bomb aimers could not see it. Remember that all the principle bombsights of WW2 were essentially optical devices connected to a more or less complicated analogue computer (and often some kind of auto-pilot). The bomb aimer looked at the aiming point through a telescope...literally, twiddled a load of knobs to input various information to his computer, a very complicated task for US bombardiers with the overcomplicated Norden sights, and dropped the bombs (or had the system do this automatically) at what was calculated to be the correct point in space.

Anyway, I digress again. When the ground was invisible, some bright spark had the idea of positioning markers over the target but above the cloud, which the bomb aimers could aim at. This technique was code named 'Wanganui' by Bomber Command.

Various types of parachute flares were used, but that most successful was the 'Skymarker Floater', first used on the night of 20-21 January 1944 during the Battle of Berlin.

The system was broadly similar to the TIs already mentioned, but rather than the candles being ejected at low altitude they were ejected at high altitude, well above the cloud cover. Each TI contained just 27 candles (again red, green or yellow), each with its own parachute. The candles would burn for about three minutes, in their parachutes, remaining visible until they burned out or fell through the cloud. These markers were known as Christmas trees by the Germans, and the cascade of candles often mistaken for some kind of phosphorus incendiary device. We used phosphorus incendiaries, but these were not them.
It was an inaccurate technique. First, with the target invisible, the marking was normally done by radar (H2S) which was notoriously inaccurate. Furthermore, you don't have to be a meteorologist to figure out that parachute born flares, falling from altitude, will rapidly drift on the wind, meaning so too did the aiming point. When used that first night in 1944 there was some doubt whether any bombs actually hit the city, and Berlin is a big target.

My favourite marker is the so called smoke puff marker, developed for daylight marking and mainly used after D-Day. Initially simple smoke markers were used but the smoke puffs produced large puffs of coloured smoke which were very distinctive and lasted for about two minutes. I'd like to have seen them in action!

 

[JR]

Quite an exciting read , they must have had hrs of fun trying those out . Very ingenious.

 

[yak face]

Quite an exciting read , they must have had hrs of fun trying those out . Very ingenious.

Oh no ! JR s getting excited thinking about incendiary devices , better put the Stamford fire brigade on standby !

 

[Tim Marlow]

Very interesting Steve. Amazing how ingenious all this was. Any idea where the markers were made? It’s just that my old home town of Salisbury hosted several pyrotechnic manufacturers back in the day. Pains Wessex, known for maritime flares, are still there.

 

[tigersteve]

Just for fun - wait for or speed through to 1 minute 40 seconds

 

[Mark1]

If I managed to retire with a bit ofspace around me my neighbours would hate me,they would hear a grinder all day long,I'll be building rusty rat rods though.