"Hornet, I'm going in, so long fellas..my position is...."

[spanner570]

I'm going to have a bash at an aircraft ditching in the sea.

I came across the tragic story of Vt - 8.

During the Battle of Midway on 4th June 1942, a group of 15 obsolete Devastator TBD-1 torpedo bombers - VT-8, set out from the carrier USS Hornet without fighter escort, to attack the Japanese fteet......

All 15 aircraft were shot down by enemy action before they reached their target.....There was only one survivor, a pilot Ensign George Gay. He was picked up the following day...44 aircrew were lost.

So I've built an Airfix 1/72 Devastator and painted it in the wartime markings of VT-8. Brush painted with Humbrol Enamels.

I'm hoping to do a sort of two part thingy.....The touch down moment and the aircraft floating.

I've 'borrowed' my lifeboat sea and had a mess about to get some ideas, but I need advise from a pilot....Cue in Joe!

To my thinking when trying to land on water, the following would apply....

Engine off.

Wheels up.

Canopies jettisoned.

Come in with the waves, rather than into them and try and land between crests...or possibly parallel to them?

Slow as poss. without stalling and try and keep the nose up as long as possible.

Get out quickly!

Any advise would be appreciated.

Here's the model and the first tentative 'posing ideas', before I start from scratch with a new base, which probably won't have such big waves as these!

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and a couple of rough poses..See what I wrote then!!

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Cheers,

Ron

View attachment 72183

 

[tommy1drop]

Nice work, really like it, looks effective.

Tom

 

[spanner570]

Nice work, really like it, looks effective.Tom

Thanks Tom, remember mind, this is only a tester to get an idea of aircraft position. I've already plonked the lifeboat back in the hole!!

 

[stona]

I've got pilot notes and manuals for many types, though not the specific one you are modelling Ron.

The advice on ditching is fairly consistent for all of them.

First the pilot.

Jettison hood, seat up (where applicable), tighten harness, disconnect R/T lead etc. Emergency hatches or panels should be opened/removed before ditching.

Next the aeroplane.

Jettison all external stores, flaps down, U/C up, engine on. An unpowered landing of any sort is intrinsically more difficult. The engine power will help in making a tail down landing as slowly as possible, a method recommended in most notes.

Finally the sea.

Almost all advise landing along swell though some suggest into the wind if sea is calm.

Some notes advise actions by the pilot like placing his left arm across his fore head and "grasping a suitable handhold" without specifying what or where that might be!

Cheers

Steve

 

[spanner570]

Thanks for your info. Steve....Engine on. I can see the logic in that now. Do you think it conceivable, upon first impact with the water, the prop would stop dead and be bent to hell? Or.... with contact imminent, the pilot would shut everything off? I'm rather slithering a bit as I don't fancy attempting a spinning prop!

"Grasping a suitable handhold." We all know just what the awful and never changing 1/72 Airfix pilot is grasping, don't we?!

 

[colin m]

This all spounds very interesting Ron. People do say hitting water at any speed is like hitting a brick wall, so I imagine the engine would stop very quickly with a fair bit of prop damage. But I'm only guessing.

 

[spanner570]

This all spounds very interesting Ron. People do say hitting water at any speed is like hitting a brick wall, so I imagine the engine would stop very quickly with a fair bit of prop damage. But I'm only guessing.

Thanks Colin, that was my reasoning...and I'm only guessing too!

I'm trying desperately to avoid trying to do a spinning prop. I've seen some good efforts, but none convincing. I doubt if I could get anywhere near as good as those anyway....

 

[spanner570]

BINGO!

I've just been on google images - don't you love that site? and I found a picture of an actual Devastator landing on water......The prop is stopped.

There are a sequence of underwater wreck shots of this type of aircraft and one clearly shows the prop intact and not bent, which surprises me, but there you go. I'm wondering if this particular aircraft was, at sometime or another, actually pushed overboard from something? Hence, no prop damage.

How about this...Just landing on the water, prop stopped, but undamaged. Then the aircraft stopped and sinking, with a slightly bent prop?

Onwards and upwards we go.....

 

[CDW]

Using a few physics laws ..... there could be a situation where the engine is on and at a decent speed, the prop could chop its way through the water in a crash, all opposing forces (i.e. impact from water against the prop, opposing the rotational force forwards) would counteract themselves and the aircraft would sink with minimum ,or no,damage to its prop.

 

[spanner570]

Thanks Colin, I suppose there are loads of variables could be added to this prop question.....Speed, sea state, aircraft condition....pilot's condition!

Perhaps best I just take an un- educated guess? I just don't want to have to model the bl***y thing spinning!

Also I've discovered the best way to land is on top of, and parallel to, the sea swell...Fancy flying or what?

 

[CDW]

Yeah a spinning prop would be quite a task, maybe a few strings of silicone could be made to look 'OK'

But I wouldn't like to try it to be honest

I neglected to say how much I like this idea when I posted above. Sorry, I'm sure it'll be another prize winner!!

After one failed attempt at flying a cesna thing I can imagine how much skill it would take to plop the craft on the swell ... Still .. Will make for a cracking diorama.

 

[Ziper_it]

I'm not an expert here but let me share my thoughts.

With the engine stopped the propeller would act as a brake in to the air: so engine was probably on (sorry).

Landing along the wave front would put a wing into the wave, plane could rotate and ...

Francesco

 

[yak face]

I was wondering where the devastator went! This is a great subject and i cant wait to see the progress mate , cheers tony

 

[flyjoe180]

Thanks for your info. Steve....Engine on. I can see the logic in that now. Do you think it conceivable, upon first impact with the water, the prop would stop dead and be bent to hell? Or.... with contact imminent, the pilot would shut everything off? I'm rather slithering a bit as I don't fancy attempting a spinning prop!"Grasping a suitable handhold." We all know just what the awful and never changing 1/72 Airfix pilot is grasping, don't we?!

All that has been said sounds reasonable for a ditching procedure. Re the engine/prop, having power on reduces stall speed and provides better control over the ruder and elevators. Both essential when operating at very low speeds at high angle of attack. Your Devastator may have copped a hit in the oil system and the engine has ceased?

 

[eddiesolo]

I'm not an expert here but let me share my thoughts.With the engine stopped the propeller would act as a brake in to the air: so engine was probably on (sorry).

Landing along the wave front would put a wing into the wave, plane could rotate and ...

Francesco

All mid to late WWII fighters and bombers had a variable prop, it also would have been feathered, so that the blades would be slicing into the air so not to act as 'air-brake', even in a ditching scenario they would have feathered the prop if the engine was dead, if not, the effect you described, would cause the plane to 'stutter', also any tail up attitude without a feathered prop meant the aircraft would achieve a 'stall' quicker so managing the aircraft would be difficult.

Heaviest point on any prop fighter is of course the engine, the nose up attitude would be totally negated the moment the tail hit the water-no more lift under the wings, the tail hitting the water acts as a brake causing the plane to loose lift, speed and therefore gravity takes over and the nose will plunge. The props will have screwing on the tips-not as much as belly-landing on land, less if the props are idling due to being feathered. The nose will dig in bringing the tail up, damaged no doubt. Good chance the pilot could well be knocked out or even killed, rear gunner could be killed as the tail impacted, especially as it is the weakest point of the aircraft.

To feather the prop just dunk in hot water for a few seconds take out and twist carefully to a straight on position.

Si

 

[Bunkerbarge]

You may well find this very interesting. It is a different aircraft but there are a lot of useful parallels there:

 

[eddiesolo]

You may well find this very interesting. It is a different aircraft but there are a lot of useful parallels there:

As he hits and the tail hits first the pilot seems to pull back on the yoke hence the high attitude of the nose prior to the plane stalling and nosing.

Good vid, ditch a B24 and then gets out and combs his hair...what a guy.

Si

 

[Polux]

Nice work Ron! And very interesting....

 

[flyjoe180]

All mid to late WWII fighters and bombers had a variable prop, it also would have been feathered, so that the blades would be slicing into the air so not to act as 'air-brake', even in a ditching scenario they would have feathered the prop if the engine was dead, if not, the effect you described, would cause the plane to 'stutter', also any tail up attitude without a feathered prop meant the aircraft would achieve a 'stall' quicker so managing the aircraft would be difficult.Heaviest point on any prop fighter is of course the engine, the nose up attitude would be totally negated the moment the tail hit the water-no more lift under the wings, the tail hitting the water acts as a brake causing the plane to loose lift, speed and therefore gravity takes over and the nose will plunge. The props will have screwing on the tips-not as much as belly-landing on land, less if the props are idling due to being feathered. The nose will dig in bringing the tail up, damaged no doubt. Good chance the pilot could well be knocked out or even killed, rear gunner could be killed as the tail impacted, especially as it is the weakest point of the aircraft.

To feather the prop just dunk in hot water for a few seconds take out and twist carefully to a straight on position.

Si

You may be surprised Si, to hear that most single engine aeroplanes with a constant speed propeller unit, are in fact designed to go to a full fine setting when engine oil pressure is lost, and not to a coarse or full feather position as you suggest. That is a system usually built into multi-engine aeroplanes, the adverse yaw between an operating engine and a failed windmilling engine vastly affecting performance and limiting control of the aeroplane.

 

[Alan 45]

Great star Ron I can see another masterpiece coming up