That old debate....

[Wouter]

Careful, that is a very difficult debate … For one, “in the name of” is already misleading: yes, Stalin had a lot of people killed in the name of communism, but in reality it was because he felt they were a threat to his position and it was nothing inherently to do with communism — whereas German national socialism actively pursued the murder of entire population groups, based purely on ideology. This is quite an important difference if you want to get into why certain symbols are more or less laden than others (though, of course, it won’t make overly much difference to the victims in the end).

Yes that's what I said but that doesn't matter to me,: in the end under the guise of that ideology many many were killed. And don't forget Mao, he was the champion of them all. For me it doesn't matter if it was done based on ideology or not, as you say the outcome is the same. And I agree it's a difficult debate indeed. In the end it all comes down to the same thing which repeats itself over and over. Wether it's in the name of religion, ideology or power. It's clearly that we humans don't really learn from history at all.

Cheers

 

[BarryW]

Yes that's what I said but that doesn't matter to me,: in the end under the guise of that ideology many many were killed. And don't forget Mao, he was the champion of them all. For me it doesn't matter if it was done based on ideology or not, as you say the outcome is the same. And I agree it's a difficult debate indeed. In the end it all comes down to the same thing which repeats itself over and over. Wether it's in the name of religion, ideology or power. It's clearly that we humans don't really learn from history at all.

Cheers

It is an ideology that has resulted in oppression and murder wherever it has been tried and, in many cases, famine and war. Like Nazism it also has racist undertones as well, Marx, if you have read his works (boring as hell and rather superficial) was without a doubt deeply racist.

I find both Nazism and Communism equally disgusting but that is not a reason, for me, not to include their symbols on scale models of their machines.

 

[Gary MacKenzie]

My personal opinion is :

Models : yes.

When it comes to statues

Real World Statues of People who were dictators/made money from illegal trades , outdoors : No.
Real World Statues / Full Size Equipment in Museums : Yes ( for educational purposes keep the insignia but explain what it means/what it stood for )

The UK has a few things it should not be proud of. ( as do all countries to a degree, more or less than UK )

 

[colin m]

Indeed an old debate, but still very valid and well discussed here.
I have a simple question to add, going of on a tangent somewhat. Am I correct in saying the swastika wasn't used on armour ? If not, anyone know why ?

 

[Tim Marlow]

It was used on air recognition flags Colin, draped over the vehicle. Don’t know why it wasn’t actually on the vehicles though.....

 

[BarryW]

My personal opinion is :

Models : yes.

When it comes to statues

Real World Statues of People who were dictators/made money from illegal trades , outdoors : No.
Real World Statues / Full Size Equipment in Museums : Yes ( for educational purposes keep the insignia but explain what it means/what it stood for )

The UK has a few things it should not be proud of. ( as do all countries to a degree, more or less than UK )

This is a discussion about the use of symbols of extremist ideology being displayed on models.

I think that shifting to the current hot topic of public statues this is not the right place, it could get politically heated. So far it has been a good well mannered discussion.

 

[minitnkr]

Amen

 

[Jon Heptonstall]

Barry.The two issues are directly related though.I don't know anyone who builds models to celebrate any particular ideology so the question of adding swasikas etc. comes down to personal choice with a balance between historical accuracy and what you're comfortable with.
Not so with statues such as the Bristol slaver and even Rhodes where historical accuracy has been carefully cherry-picked and airbrushed.Stick 'em in museums with full descriptions,warts and all.
Jon.

 

[rtfoe]

It was used on air recognition flags Colin, draped over the vehicle. Don’t know why it wasn’t actually on the vehicles though.....

I think they were on the Afrika Korp emblem...I know because mine was deleted so I had to get a stencil to add it on.

Cheers,
Richard.

 

[spanner570]

This is a discussion about the use of symbols of extremist ideology being displayed on models.

....so far it has been a good well mannered discussion.

Barry, I hope it stays thus....

 

[BarryW]

I see another attempt to divert this thread. I will not bite.

 

[Deleted member 6559]

History should never be hidden or disregarded, but it's important to remember that what we regard as the truth is someones' 'take' on events, often the victor's or at least one with a vested interest in telling the story in a way that suits their personal outlook. It is important to regard history with hindsight and absolutely necessary that modern values are applied to re-assess the past, assuming those values have changed for the general good. Julius Caesar's 'Conquest of Gaul' is one long tale of self glory to the denigration of a vibrant Gallic culture that was completely destroyed, a virtual genocide, yet the Roman's are still admired as the purveyors of 'civilising' values.

As for the swastika, if it was used on aircraft and vehicles, then it existed and if you chose to model those things, then it must be shown. Where would a Roman standard be without it's SPQR? As others have said it would be doing a disservice to those that suffered under it's imprint to delete it from history. It's also important to remember that the swastika was an ancient symbol of divinity and good luck in numerous ancient cultures:



The meaning of the symbol has been ruined for us by it's use by the Nazis and it's probably impossible now to reclaim it for it's original intention. Only the far future will tell how hindsight deals with the legacy - we're still too close to events now not to make unsavoury associations.

 

[Jon Heptonstall]

Good one Barry.
Start a debate then "refuse to bite".
Jon.

 

[BarryW]

Good one Barry.
Start a debate then "refuse to bite".
Jon.

You are diverting the topic. This is about modelling. Perhaps you should go on a political forum for that discussion where I would gladly tear you to pieces. Now and here is not the place.

 

[Jim R]

Right back to Barry's initial question in his first post.

'that old debate', the one on whether to display swastikas on models

Some will and some won't - that's clear. As modellers we should remember that including a swastika does not in any way indicate sympathy for nazi doctrine but is an issue of historical accuracy. Those who choose not to include it do so, I'm sure, to avoid any offence to viewers of their model. Those who do and those who do not should respect each others viewpoint.
While Googling this subject I found this. It was in the Personal Development Curriculum for use in Secondary Schools.
Two friends, a Jew and a Hindu, went into a building and saw displayed a large swastika. The Jew was moved to tears of sadness by this symbol of hate and the Hindu was moved to tears of joy by this symbol of hope.
Jim

 

[stona]

I'm broadly with Del back at post #16.

I go to some lengths to make my models as accurate as I can, and in the case of German aircraft from the Nazi era that includes swastikas, as per the orders of the day. I'm representing a historic aircraft, it doesn't mean that I support or have any sympathy for the regime which the swastika represents.

If someone has an issue with the swastika, then of course they shouldn't put it on their model. I respect their decision and I don't think any the less of a model which doesn't have swastikas applied. I've always been a believer that everyone should build their models the way they want, and have fun doing it. On the other hand, I expect my decision to apply them to my model to be respected too.

In the unlikely event that I was going to publicly display a model where the rules or even laws forbid swastikas I would happily cover them up. The stupidity in that is simply that it would be obvious that's what had happened, but it's not a hill I'm going to die on.



Whatever makes you happy.

 

[Jakko]

I have a feeling that this whole discussion is a little pointless, though, because it’s really preaching to the choir given where it’s held. Indeed, I suspect that even if you were to start a discussion like this on a German modelling forum, you would get much the same opinion as has been expressed in pretty much every post above: “I would put it onto a model if the real thing had it, not because I support national socialism but because it was on the real thing.”

In the unlikely event that I was going to publicly display a model where the rules or even laws forbid swastikas I would happily cover them up. The stupidity in that is simply that it would be obvious that's what had happened

I find bleeping out “bad” words on TV, in songs etc. silly for the same reason — everybody over the age of about 12 knows what they’re saying, but for some reason, they’re not allowed to hear it. If the language offends you, don’t watch the show or play the song … But that’s a diversion, and not really the same as German law forbidding the display of certain symbology in any case

 

[spanner570]

As I suspected would happen, I see it's slipped into being a bit of personal, if only briefly - Be aware, this thread is being monitored very closely.

 

[JR]

Can I join in ?

 

[stona]

But that’s a diversion, and not really the same as German law forbidding the display of certain symbology in any case

Yes, and German law is German law. If I displayed a model in Germany I would be sure to remain within German law. Whether I think that the law is right or wrong has nothing to do with it. That is a matter for the German people and there are surely blindingly obvious reasons why the laws were made. They live in a democracy, if they want to change it they can, until then I will respect it. All the Germans I know see this as a non-issue, so don't hold your breath.

I would just ask, how silly is putting multi part decals on a decal sheet to make swastikas in order to side step the law in the various territories that forbid the symbol? Just leave them out. If people want them there are plenty of options available. I've got sheets of the bl88dy things in sizes I won't use!