That old debate....

[Jakko]

I would just ask, how silly is putting multi part decals on a decal sheet to make swastikas in order to side step the law in the various territories that forbid the symbol? Just leave them out. If people want them there are plenty of options available.

“But there are people who don’t know Those exist!”
“But then we get complaints that they’re not in the kit!”
Etc.
Etc.

They’re damned if they do and damned if they don’t, I would say: If manufacturers don’t include swastikas, they get complaints about them being missing, if they do, they run the risk of their kits falling foul of some countries’ laws. And modelmaking is a niche enough hobby that the law is rather unlikely to get changed to include exemptions for models of historical subjects that are clearly not made to glorify national-socialism.

Something else I realised earlier tonight: SS runes and wolfsangel divisional markings don’t appear to cause this problem with decals. Probably because they’re a lot less recognisable to the general public.

 

[David Lovell]

My father was in the Royal Navy before the war even started ,why ,you asked him he would have told you three meals a day ,a tot of what he called pussers and clothes on his back ,saw his friends killed was quite badly injured towards the end to the extent him and mum didn't even know wether they would be able to have children (as it happened there's four of us ) but as a kid making kits he would have been the first to say that this is wrong or that the swastikas were missing he just saw it as it was ,but I do know in his last years he would watch the news and ask , look at it now was it worth it. I though don't feel comfortable with the piper Whitman tiger tank in some cases almost worship they were fully paid up members of a rotten regime but that is just me don't let me stop you ,then again are people that narrow minded they tend to ignore the Russians rapeing their way across Germany condemning thousands?of their own to death camps ,or what about the Japanese to treat human beings the way they did makes them as bad if not worse than the rest but you wouldn't build a zero without any markings. There's very few of that generation left now let us not forget them but history cannot be changed it happened in the past . Please making a scale model shouldn't come to this it is what it is a replica of something from our past.

 

[topgazza]

You can't and should wipe symbols from history or discussion. We would end up with empty history books. Its right they are still fitted to models. Its not wrong to recreate an aircraft as it was. Its reality and celebrates nothing. Same with the confederate flag IMO. Make it illegal to display it, I get that, but dont avoid it in debate or history. It existed and should not be hidden from history.

I suggest to the snowflakes and woke, not aimed at people here, they read White Gold by Gill Milton. eye opening and exposes the hypocracy of many of the current activists. In fact all should read it. Its a fascinating slice of history that needs a wider audience

 

[wotan]

I just have to comment that intellectualizing or historically justifying the display of symbolism may assuage certain consciences. Historical accuracy is not the relevant measure. the question is if an ideological abomination has pretty, or cool, technology or uniforms why do you choose to model them?
In addition the fact that a certain symbol has historical roots that are acceptable is also irrelevant. What counts is how that symbol is perceived today. If you find historical accuracy cool go for it but don't delude yourself into trying to justify the symbols.

John

 

[topgazza]

Who the heck is trying to "justify" anything. Symbols don't have roots that are acceptable, thats a daft assertion John. That they have roots is an interesting and historical facts. Key word here is fact. We should study Nazism for what it is. Not what is represents in a modern setting and viewpoint. Its history, you cant and shouldn't ignore it. How about the "intellectualising" out of history rather than understanding the historical relevence and learning from it. Historical accuracy is the relevent measure and is everything. What you do with that information is absolute key. Ignoring an "ideological abomination" is both subjective, opinionated and displays incredible patronising arrogance. Also a severe form of cowardice in facing up to our mistakes as humans and ensuring we act on them. If we dont teach them read about them and If we do nothing but erase them from debate, hello BLM, and treat everyone who reads about them as some sort of untouchable then we are doomed. Airbrushing a swastika out of a painting, model or show is Maoist at best. His mantra was to erase history that he didn't agree with. There are many declaring the same rational to justify the new "wokeness". Run away and hide. Modeling is not evangelisng any nasty and vile regimes. Its just a hobby for gods sake and accuracy is important to many. What next, build nothing greek or roman as heaven knows they were right ba*tards when it came to slavery, persecution of minorities and genocide as well. Ditto fro one of my boyhood heroes, Chaka Zulu. Great warrior he may be but he also massacred his enemies man, woman and child. Captured many and sold them into slavery. You won't see that mentioned on the BBC. It's all one way, give a knee and tug the forelock to any marxist activist group rather than take part in balanced non hysterical, non preprepared rants. Everyone knows the Nazis were the bad guys their symbols in films and even modelling are just that symbols. They cant hurt you but if anything they remind us of what horrors those people took part in. Same for the Japanese yet we paint red roundels on their aircraft models. My father law told horror stories of fighting the Japanese in Burma. They routinely removed genitals from captured soldiers just enough to keep the alive then nailed them to trees in full view. Yet we still eat in Japanese restaurants and buy their art despite some of it symbolising the mantra of made them do that. Why ? Because we understand that was then and this is now.Nazi's, slavery, Japanese torture and rape, Roman burning alive of whole villages, Greek slaves. All history but all important to know. Again wipe this stuff from our lives is to insult those that died and is ignorance of the highest order that George Orwell in his novel 1984 would have recognised as utopia

Why should I or anyone apologise for slavery or the swastika. I suggest you read some history books, probably some you would have banned, and discover, for instance how some of the biggest slavers were in fact African tribes, slavery is still going on and practiced throughout the world. And that Nazi belief still exists in some countries but we recognise it and can push it away. Tearing down statues rather than label them with all the facts, good and bad is not the way to go. Half witted snowflakes with their pathetic safe zones wouldn't know how to defend their country from the Nazis.They have no spine, experience of the real world and a basic understanding of history and it's impact and context.

Apologies.... I studied History ancient and modern..... I get excited...sorry again

 

[wotan]

Gary

I understand and agree with many of your views. What is troubling is that Nazism and Racism still exist. This is not a denial of history,( of which by the way I am also a student) it is more an awareness that certain groups still adhere to these outdated ideologies and see the display of symbols as a rallying call to their delusions. If we have learned anything through modern politics it is that it only requires good men to do nothing for evil to prevail.

Gary get excited and more power to you.

John

 

[rtfoe]

Another issue that needs clarification...in a competition if there are two identical builds up for a medal with nothing in terms of quality, finish between them and one is missing the swastikas...what would be the verdict for the last tick on the score sheet for realism?

Cheers,
Richard

 

[Gern]

Just read through this and wrote about a page of comments. Then I thought this isn't the right place for such and deleted it. But:

Trying to hide history in whatever shape or form we do it is wrong. Our history is there. It happened and we can't change it. We can't hide it however hard we try. Those symbols were real. They existed. We have no right to hide them and pretend they didn't.

 

[boatman]

WELL Dave what you say is spot on as far as im concerned well done
chris

 

[AlanG]

Personally i feel this thread has run it's course. So i thank you all for keeping it civilised as far as possible.