Varnish, wash, thinner mismatch

[Matt.]

Bit embarrassed after ruining another model after spending tens of hours on it. After a bit of advice on varnish, washes and cleaning off washes, thought I’d done enough research, apparently not.

Gloss lacquer, I’ve tried experimenting with a few varnishes including pledge floor cleaner and ended it settling for alclad 2. I do find it stays soft for days though, is there a better alternative That will give a great smooth finish as this does but with a more robust finish, I can still get fingerprints 4 days after coating if pressed on hard.

Panel wash, just tried using humbrol enamel panel line which was a bit wispy washy so I probably went a bit over board. Is there a better panel line wash that flows nicely down the lines?was thinking about trying tamiya but worried about it being enamel.

Cleaning off panel wash, just tried cleaning off the humbrol panel line wash using enamel thinners and although it did clean it off, my alclad 2 lacquer has gone really soft and also rubbed off.
Any advice of what I’ve done wrong or wrong product mismatch I’m using would be greatly appreciated, I was fairly happy with how things were going but wanting to move onto panel lines and some simple weathering.

thanks Matt

 

[Deleted member 7917]

Matt,

Like yourself my usual regime has been gloss clear, fix decals, gloss clear, panel wash, clean up with thinners (Q-tip lightly wet) then satin or matt clear finishing coat, the clear coats being done with a brush. This week, for the first time, I used Ammo acrylic clear instead of my usual Revell product. I noticed that the Ammo clear remained much softer than the Revell, but I persisted with my routine leaving a clear 24 hours between steps. The Airfix wash I used had thickened a bit and didn't run the panel lines as I would normally expect resulting in more cleaning up with thinners. After another 24 hours, I went to apply the final clear coat (again Ammo) and found it 'rolling up' the preceding clear coat so I stopped immediately.

I've put this down to two factors - the Ammo clear had yet to harden and in this case I used too much thinners to tidy up the panel wash which probably softened the previous clear coat even further.

For some time I had been using Ammo panel wash/odourless thinners with my Revell clear and the results were great. This time around I used an Airfix wash as I didn't have the colour I wanted in Ammo.

Frankly, I have been bitten so many times by combining products from different brands and stumbling into some incompatibility. Having recently taken up airbrushing I've started using Ammo acrylic paint and have been quite impressed, however, their clear products are a big disappointment and I'll be sticking to Revell in future.

I haven't got a definitive answer to your own problem but perhaps my own comments will help you work it out.

Cheers

 

[Mr Bowcat]

As a general rule you want to use different types of varnish and weathering products. By this I mean if you are going to use enamel weathering products, use an acrylic varnish so the thinners used for cleaning up the enamel weathering won't effect the varnish.

Personally I use Winsor & Newton acrylic varnishes and various enamel weathering products, but mainly Mig & AK.

 

[Jim R]

All paints, varnishes, washes etc take far longer to cure than you may think. This is especially true of solvent based products such as lacquers, oils and enamels but even water based acrylics take time. The surface may become touch dry quickly, acrylics within a few minutes, but much longer is needed for things to cure and fully harden. Think of oil painters who leave varnishing their work for months. Where the model is makes a difference. Paint cures far quicker in a warm room than in a cold shed. If, as Bob says, you layer up with products which have differing solvents you can get away with a shorter curing time although even then problems can occur. For example an acrylic, water based varnish over an enamel base that is not full cured can lead to the varnish going milky, cracking or not adhering well.
Patience and a light box really help. My light box is a one of those large plastic storage boxes with a few holes in the lid and a low power light bulb at one end. Models stay in there after painting/varnishing etc for a day or so before I consider another layer. I can honestly say I now have no incompatibility problems.


I hope you sort out your issues because painting etc often comes after weeks spent carefully building a model and it can be heartbreaking when the final stages go wrong.
Jim

 

[Deleted member 7917]

... painting etc often comes after weeks spent carefully building a model and it can be heartbreaking when the final stages go wrong.

Amen to that, Jim. It's happened far to often to myself but it's part of the learning process. However, the more I've starting to get the majority of pleasure from the construction/painting bit, I'm not as shattered as I used to be when something goes awry. When I was younger I was anxious to get a model finished and on display, but that - for some reason - is no longer the case. I often repeat building the same model to put the experience of the first one into a better job on the second.

Thanks for your post which is most helpful.

 

[Dave Ward]

Murfie,
we've all been there, done that! The thing is to move on, and don't make the same mistakes again - I have to say that since moving to only acrylics, I find finishing models easier than enamels - the varnishes, washes etc all dry much faster than enamels ( although I still leave varnishes for 24 hours to really harden off ). All I can say with mismatches is just try one maker, if it still happens, it's something wrong with your technique!
Dave

 

[Deleted member 7917]

Dave,

Ta for the comments. My main failing some time back, was not being aware that there are three types of acrylic paints - water based, alcohol based and lacquer based. Mixing those three in ignorance was disastrous. Recently, I've had very little compatibility problems. But the use for the first time of Ammo acrylic clear coats upset the apple cart. It seems very soft even after 3-4 days of drying. And the Ammo thinners I used for the panel line wash made it even softer. I'm just going to revert to my trusted Revell acrylic clears and give the Ammo a miss.

 

[Matt.]

Thanks Jim, Dave, Murfie, Bob,
Really appreciate your comments and time
Just ordered some VMS gloss and mig panel line from Scale Model Shop as well as some other supplies and found some Winsor & Newton Galeria. Got a couple of donor models now so going to have to spent some trial evenings.Thanks again.
Will let you know how I get on.
Matt

 

[Matt.]

Been having a play with various varnishes, washes etc.
I can’t get a better Gloss finish than with alclad 2,
I can apply mig panel line that goes down great on the alclad. I think the only issue I have still ongoing is that when cleaning off the mig or humbrol panel line with enamel thinners its eating into the alclad 2 lacquer.
Anyone got any ides?
Just tried washing off with Various different things I have kicking around and I either don’t touch the wash at all or it cleans the wash but also damages the varnish.
Thanks Matt

 

[Deleted member 7917]

Matt, what is the brand/type of the enamel thinners you are using?

 

[Matt.]

Hi Murfie, it’s humbrol enamel thinners.
Still playing and just got a good gloss using Winsor & Newton with about 30% tamiya acrylic thinners. Not sure if that’s a good match but decided to have an experimental day.
Will see how that drys and withstands the thinners in a few days

 

[Deleted member 7917]

Give Ammo odourless thinners a try if that doesn't work. After more investigation I've found that the problem I had at the start of this thread was caused by a reaction between Ammo acrylic clear and Micro Set decal setter which surprised me, but not the first time that had happened. Airfix Decalfix gave me a similar problem some time back. I'm fast getting to the stage where I'm going to abandon post panel shading and opt for pre panel shading, though I have one more radical acrylic only method of doing post panel shading left to try. Will let you know how that goes along with the details if it works out.

Cheers!

 

[Tim Marlow]

Humbrol thinners is very “hot”, so it’s not really ideal for that use I’d say. If you’re careless with it the kit can actually come apart.....
I would second Murfie’s suggestion, or the one I’ve used in the past, Winsor and Newton Sansodor odourless oil thinners.

 

[Matt.]

Hi Murfie, is this the Ammo thinners
Hi Tim, is this the Winsor thinners.
I’m willing to give both ago because I’m getting good varnish results with Winsor and I’m getting better results with Ammo mig panel line.
Just painted a few donor models for more experimenting next week.

 

[Tim Marlow]

Yep, that’s the baby.....

 

[Deleted member 7917]

My experimentation with a tube of water mixable oil colour for post panel shading turned out unsatisfactory.

Matt, I also remembered that when I was trying out thinners to totally remove acrylic paint, I did find that Humbrol thinners turned dried acrylic paint coats into a sticky mess, so definitely that shouldn't be used to clean up post panel shading as Tim suggested. Your two new thinners should be much better.

 

[Matt.]

Quick update on some more experimenting, quick paint and varnish on mosquito wings
Left to right

Winsor and Newton Galeria - Good glossy finish but effected by enamel thinners. Struggled with 0.35 nozzle as it’s quite thick.

VMS - not quite as glossy but still ok, feels totally hard and not soft to the touch. Airbrushed ok but still effected by enamel thinners

Pledge - airbrushed with ease, least glossy out of the 4 varnishes I tried but stood up to enamel thinners the best

Alclad 2 - airbrushed with ease, gives the most glossy finish by far but is soft to the touch even 3 days after spraying (easy to leave thumb print in it) is effected by enamel thinners.

Note: enemal thinners was Humbrol, still waiting for new thinners to arrive, will add how that goes once it arrives and tested.

 

[Komedy]

Here is my approach to this stage. I paint with MRP usually oversprayed with leveling thinners to get the best smooth base for a gloss coat.

Then Super Clear II gloss, two coats again oversprayed with leveling thinners. Dries in no time and hard as nails.

Apply decals and super clear again. Then rub back with 2500 or 3000 grit to smooth decals.

Then a heavily thinned Tamiya XF colour for modulation if that's the look I'm going for.

At this point Vallejo Acrylic Satin Gloss two coats before applying the enamel washes. Satin helps the washes stick if that's the effect I'm after.

As that gloss coat is an acrylic no issues with washes or thinners attacking what's below.

If you are using a hot gloss coat before washes then you need water based washes like Flory etc.

The pledge worked for you as it's an acrylic gloss

 

[BarryW]

This is what I use starting from the basis that lacquers are by far the best performers through the airbrush.

First: get rid of sanding rubble, finger grease and other contaminants from the surface with a good wipe of isopropanol alcohol.

Primer:
MRP lacquer based primer though I consider Stynylrex (and white labelled versions) a decent alternative.

Base coat:
Always MRP, these are the best airbrush paints so why use anything else.

The MRP lacquer metallisers are as good as the paints. So these are used where spraying metallics.

Detail painting with hairy stick.
Water based acrylics are best for this so I use the MRP water based range or Vallejo. These work well over MRP, lacquers would be a problem in re-activating the sprayed colour.

For metallics though I use AKI’s wax metallisers which thin with enamel thinners. The coverage is excellent but you have to make sure that you apply a decent varnish coat over them before weathering.

Varnish.
ideally a water based varnish would be best such as Alclad Aqua or Vallejo would be best over MRP but I have often found that these will pool and be problematical. I therefore use lacquers as these varnishes spray as faultlessly as the paint. Therefore it is MRP. Care has to be taken though not to ladown heavy coats because if you do the paint will be reactivated and will be a problem. So these are used in very light coats building up slowly. Thee great thing is that MRP provide a matt, semi-matt, gloss and semi-gloss enabling you to get the sheen that you want, not necessarily the same all over a model.

I do keep some enamel varnish as I find this useful to use with a hairy stick to replicate glass dials and similar.

Weathering washes
Always over varnished surfaces. The only exception being the MRP metallisers, I try not to varnish over these to preserve the metallic effect. I use AKI and Mig enamel washes. These tend to work well over the lacquer varnish, run nicely in panel lines and removing the surplus does not remove any varnish. For safety I do leave the varnish a longer curing time than I usually do, an hour or so rather than 30 minutes, before washes.

So water, lacquer and enamel products can work well together with each having strengths that are complimentary to each other.

 

[Matt.]

Here is my approach to this stage. I paint with MRP usually oversprayed with leveling thinners to get the best smooth base for a gloss coat.

Then Super Clear II gloss, two coats again oversprayed with leveling thinners. Dries in no time and hard as nails.

Apply decals and super clear again. Then rub back with 2500 or 3000 grit to smooth decals.

Then a heavily thinned Tamiya XF colour for modulation if that's the look I'm going for.

At this point Vallejo Acrylic Satin Gloss two coats before applying the enamel washes. Satin helps the washes stick if that's the effect I'm after.

As that gloss coat is an acrylic no issues with washes or thinners attacking what's below.

If you are using a hot gloss coat before washes then you need water based washes like Flory etc.

The pledge worked for you as it's an acrylic gloss

Thanks Warren, I think the 4 varnishes I’m playing with are acrylic, all my issues appear when cleaning up the enamel washes with Humbrol enamel thinners, my varnish is turning soft and sticky. I’m really hoping the other thinners I have on order help fix my issue, if not I’m going to try the vallejo acrylic that you use. Thanks Matt