109E color questions

[T. van Vuuren]

Hi Lads.

I would like to know what the RLM colors would be for the following planes please.

1 . JG 26 "white 12" of Joachim Mucheberg , I think it was 1940.

Whas the demarcation line on the fuselage between the top and bottom colors a hard or soft edge? Coor of the mottle would be witch one of the top colors?

2. JG2 Flown by Helmut Wick. Same questions

Thanx

Theuns

 

[stona]

1. Munchenberg.

I think this was probably 71/02 over 65 and there is good evidence for this or at least why it was unlikely to be something else.

I've seen it done as 74/75 over 76. This can NOT be correct. The first documented Bf 109s finished in that scheme date from the spring of 1941 and were F-1s produced at Wiener Neustadt (WNF). JG 26 received its E-7s, of which Munchenberg's is one, in October 1940.

I've also seen it done in 'mixed greys' supposedly applied to some aircraft on the Channel Front in late 1940. These colours were experimental pre-cursors of the later RLM 74 and 75. This must be a possibility, but I've never seen any evidence that Munchenberg's aircraft was painted this way.



The original demarcation was tightly sprayed, as it was factory applied, but was softened with a lot of mottling, typical of JG 26. The mottling probably used both camouflage colours.

I would go with 71/01/65 but if you decide to go with a combination of greys (over 65) nobody can prove you wrong

2 Wick.

His Bf 109 originally had a high tightly sprayed demarcation, but it is hard to see due to the stippling that was applied in a much darker colour, probably RLM 71, which obscures the line quite well.



I don't remember where this is from, but obviously the swastika was not allowed.



Cheers

Steve

 

[T. van Vuuren]

Thanx a stack Steve!

SO then it looks like 71/02 over 56.

I am rather surprized as to how "soft" the motling was on white 12. Would the 71 and 02 be randomly applied on the side of the fuse, how far down would it go?

I have used Humbrol's range of new RLM enamels and I must say it looks good, makes for easy painting aswell!

Theuns

 

[stona]

Thanx a stack Steve!SO then it looks like 71/02 over 56.

Theuns

Over 65, but I'm sure that's what you meant

From memory the mottle was quite diffuse but came down to a line just above the wing root. If you imagine a line from the back of the wing, passing just below the bottom of the rear arm of the balkenkreuz, it would be about right for the mottle further back. It wasn't usually applied beneath the tail plane. The idea was to tone down the rather bright blue RLM 65 on the fuselage sides which compromised camouflage on the ground.

It's worth remembering that when the 'Emils' of JG 26 arrived in Sicily in February 1941 they had been in service for five months which is actually a long time for a fighter at this time. The Mediterranean climate may not have been sympathetic to the paintwork either. Luftwaffe units deployed very quickly to the Mediterranean during this period, rapid redeployment was something at which the Luftwaffe excelled, but they may well have been short of some materiel, at least initially.

Cheers

Steve

 

[T. van Vuuren]

LOL, yes I meant 65

Thanx for the info Steve, it will help allot.

Busy with the good old Tamiya 1/48 Emil, I have already done a trop, do another one will be nice.

Theuns

 

[T. van Vuuren]

Sreve, I just realized now, RLM 02 and 71.....Do you mean the same "grau grun? RLM 02 as in the early 109 cockpits?

Theuns

 

[stona]

Sreve, I just realized now, RLM 02 and 71.....Do you mean the same "grau grun? RLM 02 as in the early 109 cockpits?Theuns

Yes.

Originally Luftwaffe fighters were finished in two greens RLM 70 and RLM 71 (like bomber and transport aircraft) but long before the period you are interested in the RLM 70 was replaced with RLM 02, both in the field and subsequently at the factories. 71/02 became the standard fighter camouflage until the introduction of the grey 74/75 scheme.

BTW your B 109 E cockpit would most likely be RLM 02, the same colour as the wheel wells, main landing gear and tail wheel struts and inside of the gear doors. There were some exceptions but without good evidence RLM 02 would be the default for all of these. It was also, as above, one of the upper camouflage colours.

The wheel hubs should be a semi-gloss black (I use Humbrol satin black but can't remember the number).

One area of contention is that revealed when the leading edge slats are deployed. I get around this by having them up, as you will see on most parked Bf 109s. It was common practice to push them up on parked aircraft to avoid debris getting into the mechanism. The Bf 109 being a tail dragger gravity would keep them in place. If you do want to have the slats out then the choice is RLM 02 yet again, or a continuation of the camouflage colours. I think the latter was more common except on very early aircraft but that's just opinion and there is no right or wrong as far as I know.

Cheers

Steve

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[T. van Vuuren]

perfect thanx Steve!

 

[flyjoe180]

The wheel hubs should be a semi-gloss black (I use Humbrol satin black but can't remember the number).

That would be Humbrol 85, satin coal black I think.

 

[stona]

The wheel hubs should be a semi-gloss black (I use Humbrol satin black but can't remember the number).That would be Humbrol 85, satin coal black I think.

That's the one!

Cheers

Steve

 

[T. van Vuuren]

The colors might not be 100% correct. but to me it looks like an early 109e

Theuns

View attachment 87105

 

[T. van Vuuren]

What is the tri-angle flag on the ariel mast of white 12?

 

[flyjoe180]

I built 'White 1" which Muchenberg flew before he adopted "White 12". It too had the white pennant which I fashioned from thin card. I think the explanation given at the time was that senior markings would attract a lot of attention from the enemy, so the pennant was adopted which was less obvious but still allowed fellow pilots to recognise their commanders.

View attachment 87151

 

[T. van Vuuren]

Cool , thanx Joe

Theuns

 

[stona]

Yes, it's a pennant of rank. In earlier days these were material 'flags' attached to an aircraft but that didn't work so well at 350 mph !

Munchenberg's was metal. The RAF painted pennants onto the side of the aircraft beneath the windscreen.

I think that looks good, a LOT like a Bf 109 E

Cheers

Steve

 

[T. van Vuuren]

Ah, I wondered what the blue and red triangle was on the side of some SAAF pits , Thanx

Theuns

 

[T. van Vuuren]

Here is a question that has bugged me for some time now wrt the splinter camo. It didn't make sense to me why they would put such straight edges on wings ,then I noticed the small straight edged fields and hedges of the UK and France with different greens.

Would it be to try and blend into this backdrop??

Theuns

 

[stona]

It's a form of disruptive camouflage, the idea being to disrupt and hide the outline of the aircraft rendering it much harder to see. There are various forms of this, from the splinter camouflage used on ships to the stripes of a Zebra, but I have copied the two most relevant pages of the 1942 publication 'Camouflage Simplified' by Eric Sloane which may help.





The colours are not 'dazzle' colours on a Bf 109 but are chosen for another aspect of camouflage, concealment by colour resemblance and also counter shading, a way of dealing with the problem of shadows.

Colour resemblance is self explanatory.

Many animals, from fish to Springboks are counter shaded. In simple terms areas that would normally be in shadow (undersides) are painted in a lighter colour than those which would receive more direct illumination (typically upper surfaces). Fish and Springboks may not be painted but the colouring of their scales/skin or fur reflects the same principle.

There's a lot more to this camouflage lark than meets the eye and a lot of time, effort, research and money went in to developing the schemes.

Cheers

Steve

 

[T. van Vuuren]

Good info Steve, thanx.

I just found it interesting that the Germans used straight "mathimatical lines" and the commonwealth used more flowing rounded lined to break up the plan'es shape.

The most effective I saw, although very limited to where it could be used was German desert "mottle" like on 109 black 8. Over the Med it would stand out like a sore thumb!

Theuns

 

[stona]

The so called 'digital' camouflage on this Indian helicopter is the best I've seen recently.



Cheers

Steve