I have had it with dedicated primers!!!

[Fenlander]

Right, a bit of background, bear with me, I am on one at the moment.....


When I started modelling in my second childhood, about ten years ago, I didn't have an airbrush but I did have the Internet and started following various modellers online that shared their working methods and introduced me to the wonders of airbrushing.


Now, I am not going to mention names or sites as I don't want anyone to think I am criticising them because I am not. But one site in particular convinced me to get my first airbrush and switch to Tamiya paints. Now, this guy didn't bother with specific primers, he just primed using whichever neutral grey Tamiya paint he had the most of. After priming, he would check and address any surface issues and then res pray with the chosen colour.


So, naturally, I did the same and I was impressed. Over the years this guy and others discovered the benefits of dedicated primers, cheaper in bigger bottles than using Tamiya. So, of course I went out and bought bottles of primer. At first I was happy then I found I was having airbrush problems so I binned my unbranded cheapo and bought a budget Iwata. It was great, I was happy again..... For a while.


I soon found that I was having problems with the airbrush again so I put it to one side and had a break from modelling. When I came back I checked up on the sites I had followed and it was about that time I found and joined this form. Things had moved on a tad and Vallejo paints ruled the roost so, obviously I went and bought loads of them


Still having issues with my Iwata I messed about changing needles and such until eventually, I took it to bits that often to unblock it, I stripped the thread on the nozzle...... So, everyone was then into H&S but I could not afford the top end so I bought the Ultra. Oh, what a revelation! Super smooth airbrushing using the wonder Vallejo paints and their thinners.


But history started to repeat itself and I started having problems airbrushing and I was getting really frustrated with life and everything so modelling was dumped.


Yep, I came back again and I bought some coloured primers and they worked fine, I was happy again. Then I started having airbrush problems and I wrote a post on here saying that the H&S Ultra was the worst airbrush I had ever had. But I struggled on knowing that I would have to strip and clean about four times for each coat.


But things had moved on and Vallejo primer was no longer in vogue but a new kid was on the block so I bought some. The same week that I got this new primer, I was asked to review a budget Chinese airbrush so I thought, why not combine the two? I'd did a test spray with the airbrush and the new primer and it was good.


Then yesterday, I built the cockpit for my current build and, using the budget airbrush, I just used Tamiya paint for the main grey and brush painted Revell anthracite for the black, it was superb.


This morning I decided to prime the aircraft with the new primer and the budget airbrush and it was a nightmare! What had happened overnight that caused the airbrush not to work as it had for the last two days?


So, I cleaned it out and as I mixed a new batch of primer, I though back to the happy days of an unbranded airbrush and Tamiya paints. Binning the primer mix, I found a bottle of Tamiya dark sea grey, stirred it up in the chunky glass bottle with a Tamiya paint stirrer, poured some Tamiya thinners into the colour cup and poured in roughly the same amount of Tamiya paint. Mixed them in the colour cup and, taking a deep breath, started spraying the aircraft.


It was amazing, good consistent paint flow, beautiful finish but soon ran out. No probs, dumped some more thinners into the colour cup, added roughly the same amount of paint and just carried on until I was finished. Flushed out the airbrush and put it to one side. It had been a perfect spraying session and the finish on the model was just gorgeous.


OK, anyone still with me? If so, I need help. There is an answere to all this but I don't know what it is but, as always, I have a theory.


Tamiya paints, in glass bottles are easy to stir the old fashioned way rather than the shake till your arm drops off business. Now, a lot of people seem to be having issues with the likes of Vallejo but not everyone so the answer is out there because some people do not have problems.


Is it the mixing, is it the thinners? I don't know. I did suspect that my paint was going off over time but the Tamiya I used today was at least six years old and had been opened.


The new primer is new, so why work one day but not the next. The only common factor is the plastic dropper bottles that you shake. maybe that isn't enough but I would be interested in what you think.


Sorry for the ramble but this is getting on my nerves, I am tempted to just chuck all the paint out and stick with Tamiya....

 

[stona]

I think a couple of people on this forum have already nailed this. It is dried or drying paint in that oh so convenient dropper getting into your paint cup and inevitably blocking your nozzle. That's the theory anyway.


Cheers


Steve

 

[Gern]

I think the guys may be right Graham.


I went to see Steve (Stona) for some help with my A/B some years ago when I had the same issues you are suffering with. We found it was due to bits of dried paint in the A/B. I used Revell Aqua at the time and every time you stir one of those, you will knock off bits of dried paint from the inside edges of the container from previous stirrings.


It's at least possible that the A/B is being blocked by semi liquid paint - the 'worms' - which of course disappear when you wash out your brush as the cleaner liquefies them enough to get carried away in the airflow - leaving no evidence of the cause of the problem.

 

[PhilJ]

I think the guys have made excellent points. I've only been airbrushing since I started modelling just under a year ago. I'm a bit ocd with cleaning preping ect. I use Vallejo primer (light grey) and at least every other use I unscrew the lid and clean the dropper out. I also have a couple of ball bearings in there and have bearings in my metallics too.


I have shaken my primer vigorously for a good few seconds before I have had the bearing dislodge and start really mixing the paint. I really believe a lot of people just don't shake mix enough.

 

[Robert1968]

I'm with Phil ( I bought a couple of bags of ball bearings from eBay and well every bottle of Vallejo/ model air etc gets one dropped in ( big bottle primers two or 3.


I have a damp cloth with thinners on it and alway wipe the dropper bottle lid first then drop a couple of drops on tissue after a good shake then mix as per norm in cup.


I have a few Val primers ( negro ) and they have a lot of icky crap at the top and occasionally I scrape this off and make sure it never gets in the bottle


I think Monica had problems recently with "offf"primer


I've got quire a few Tamiya paints and every now and then take the lids off and wipe with x20 to get all the dried paint off


I've had a few probs with a/b due to this pieces of semi paint clogging the nozzle but I could say I do strip my a/b down and clean then flush with boiled water ( try to get it as clean as I can ) I prob over clean if truth be known


Regards


Robert

 

[BarryW]

There are all sorts of issues that affect airbrushing and paint including humidity. All I know is what works for me but, even so, sometimes and issue will arise even though I do things all the same way.


What I do know is that by following the following rules I minimise any issues:


1/ make sure the plastic is cleaned with ipa


2/ use a 04 needle in my a/b


3/ spray at around 20psi or less for thinned paint or a lot less for metalisers.


4/ spray in light coats building up slowly not flooding the surface.


5/ always prime (now I use Stynylrez)


6/ leave 24 house before masking


7/ strip clean after every spray session and do a colour change clean half way through spraying a larger model with a single colour.


8/ test spray for flow off the model first


9/ don't put too much in the colour cup at a time


10/ put the lid on the paint cup!


I also put agitators into the paint and shake well.


By the way, I find the AKI a little better than Vallejo to spray and have slightly fewer problems with them.


that lot does minimise issues but sometimes something will stilll go wrong, such is life!!

 

[Fenlander]

I agree with what you are all saying and I do have agitators in the bottles of paint. The problem is not debris blocking it is the paint thickening. One day I mix a batch and it sprays ok, next day I mix another batch and it doesn't. Given that the conditions are stable, I cannot see why this would happen yet it doesn't with the Tamiya, it does at least work consistently.


Another case in point is some of the new Mig Ammo paints. Not tried them in the new airbrush yet but I just cannot get them through the H&S Ultra at all I even thinned to about 20% Paint 80% thinners and it was sitting and spattering. That goes for their satin varnish too which I ended up having to poke out of the nozzle with the needle. It was just like semi dried PVA.


I just don't understand the self thickening issue, and it really does, I once had it so thick it wouldn't pour out of the colour cup within minutes of it pouring in, that was Vallejo grey primer, now in the bin. The same stuff I have been using for years with no issues and nothing else has changed.


Weird but I was watching a Q&A video on the Badger primer. The user was thinning with IPA which is what I used. One contributer had written in saying that when they mix with IPA it turns into sludge. One day this worked for me, the next day mine turned to sludge too.


Still, I have an easy answer for myself and that is to stick with what works for me and I recommend anyone else to do the same whatever that paint may be.

 

[Ssasho0]

Well your story sounds weird and may be a case of not properly cleaning the airbrush after spraying.


Please don't get offended, just check if you do clean it properly!


I'm using H&S Evolution for already over 3 years with mainly Tamiya and Mr. Hobby Colour paints, but also any other type I feel like including alclads and other metalizers, Valejo, Italeri, Revell etc. I also regularly spray primers like Mr. Surfacer (whole range from 500 to 1500 and in different colours), Tamiya and Alclad primers and microfillers. The only times when I have had similar issues were when I didn't cleaned the airbrush correctly after spraying! Here are few very important points that have to be considered:


1) get airbrush cleaning set of a kind with small brushes and very important - the needle-like metal thing that you clean the nozzle from dried paint. I rarely use this one, but when the airbrush start to act funky, I just clean the nozzle with it and voila.


2) Absolutely no backflushing! Let me say it again - NO BACKFLUSHING! This is the "put your finger in front of the nozzle and press the trigger to make bubles in order to clean it better" thing! Don't do it, never! It pushes the paint and thinner where it is not supposed to be going.


3) If possible, always pull/remove the needle to the front - only possible with some airbrushes that are designed to be like this. For example all H&S are like this, you rmove the nozzle and pull the needle out from the front. Pulling it from the back pulls paint with it, inside the airbrush and around the trigger, preventing proper airflow and clogging the airbrush.


4) When spraying acrylics use 95% alcohol (sold very cheap in the pharmacy. Here 1L is less than 2GBP), when spraying other types of paint (Alclads, Enamels, Lacquers) use more aggressive or dedicated cleaner. I mainly use Mr. Toolcleaner for those, but note that it may damage the o-rings and other rubber/plastic parts of the airbrush if soaked and left for prolonged periods.


How do I clean my airbrush - first I spray one or two cups with Alcohol (or Mr. tool cleaner), then disassemble it. All parts of the nozzle and the cup are soaked within alcohol. I soak a tissue and clean the needle, then I run the needle few times through the brush, every time cleaning with the soaked tissue. Always putting it from the back and pulling through the front, generally until it stops to leave marks of paint on the tissue. Next step is to use the cleaning kit, cleaning with the soaked in alcohol brushes in the airbrush, until there are no marks of paint anywhere. Next with the smallest brush I clean the nozzle, if needed use the needle like metal thing to rub off any dried paint, but don't push it too hard as it may actually damage the nozzle. Assemble the airbrush and spray 2 cups with alcohol, then it is ready. Please note that I use Mr. toolcleaner very sparingly, just the first clear and then if the paint have dried I use it with the small brushes, but if possible, don't soak any plastic/rubber parts in it. I continue to clean with alcohol after that. Never had issues like yours!


Use some one use pipettes (bought super cheap from the pharmacy) to put paint from the jar to the airbrush, don't pour it directly as some dried paint from the end of teh jar may get into the paint and clog the nozzle.


I hope this helps even though my quite bad English.


Best regards,


Sasho

 

[Ssasho0]

Another case in point is some of the new Mig Ammo paints. Not tried them in the new airbrush yet but I just cannot get them through the H&S Ultra at all I even thinned to about 20% Paint 80% thinners and it was sitting and spattering. That goes for their satin varnish too which I ended up having to poke out of the nozzle with the needle. It was just like semi dried PVA.

I had similar issues with Valejo paints when trying Tamiya or Gunze thinners with them, the instantly turn into glue like goo.... Maybe you should try different thinner, pure water should work or Mig's own thinner. As far as I know Valejo and Mig are the same type of paints, may be mistaken here, don't take it for granted.

 

[eddiesolo]

Two problems I found:


1: Dried paint flecks in the well mixed paint blocking the AB. I found it was coming from the neck of the bottle, so wipe clean as best I can.


2: I have noticed that acrylics like consistent temps, my work shed is either too cold or too warm, getting temp right for using can be tricky. Even after stirring like mad, it can be a bit lumpy even then with thinners it doesn't like to separate and the pigment clumps. Can be a pain to keep adding thinner and mixing until you get a good consistency.

 

[Wayne Rogers]

Hi modelers i am using vallejo paints and primer and i have noproble with it drying out on my airbrushs i use a iwata neo and iwata eclipse hp-bcs spray at 25 to 30 psi. The way i mix is put the paint into the airbrush then vallejo thinner 71.161 and mix together with a paintbrush. Hope this helps

 

[dubster72]

I really don't think it's an issue about cleaning the airbrush. I've known Graham on here for years & I'm sure his regime is up to standard.


We always seem to think that the problems are in our airbrushes, but in my opinion it's the paint. That's the element that potentially changes each time we spray.


I think that part of the problem is simply Sods Law. The gods of model making like nothing more than seeing a grown man cry


There's no simple or easy solution to any of these problems, other than using enamels instead of acrylics

 

[stona]

My routine is a lot easier.


1 Mix paint (enamel, various brands) until I think it's done , then repeat. Whatever paint you use you can't mix it too much.


2 Couple of drops of white spirits, then paint (enamel) then more white spirits to suit. I bought a box of 1,000 transfer pipettes for this about 10 years ago for not a lot and have barely scratched the surface of the contents.


3 Mix in paint cup, sucking the paint/thinners in and out of one of the pipettes is my principal mixing method, but a quick back flush may help if you don't mind inadvertently decorating your shirt!


4 Spray. Hand on heart I don't exactly remember the last time I had a problem with any airbrush during the spraying process. It would have been a few years ago when I briefly flirted with acrylic paints


5 Wipe out paint cup, flush with a cup of white spirits. Another paint cup of white spirits through which I remove the needle for a wipe, flush through (including a back flush) and replace needle. If I need to use another cup of white spirits to be completely cleaned up it's not going to break the bank.


If there is any problem (very rare) I repeat this process with cellulose thinners. This stuff is expensive and I only use it if I feel I have to.


When a model is finished I might strip an airbrush completely and give it a really deep clean and lubrication. Otherwise I do it when it stops working properly, which can be months, or if I'm bored. The thing that usually stops one of my airbrushes working properly is not my paints but the acrylic varnish I use (Vallejo). I built and sprayed two models before disassembling my Iwata Eclipse for a deep clean recently, and I only did it because I had the time on my hands (all of 15 minutes), and there was an acrylic crud in the crown, it was working just fine.


I lubricate with WD 40. Iwata doesn't recommend this, they claim it will obstruct the needle moving through the packing making the action stiff, but it doesn't, quite the reverse in fact. I've been doing it for years with no problem. Airbrush companies have a vested interest in selling you miniature tubes of expensive lubricant.


I spray at about 35-40 psi which is what Iwata recommend for my principle brushes, so they get one out of two I don't find it necessary to keep altering the pressure for different paints or different techniques, though, as I read model forums it seems everybody else does! It's part of a general tendency to over think and over complicate a fairly straight forward process. Some people even strain their paint through muslin filters.....Ye Gods!!!!!!! If my paint is drying up, or bitty I'll buy a new tin/bottle.


Cheers


Steve

 

[Deleted member 4539]

Well Graham I think you have finally hit the nail on the head.


You have found that Tamiya paints spray well.


The only 2 products I use in my airbrushes are Tamiya and Alclad II..


I always give my models a wash in soapy water and when dry give a rub down with IPA.


I never have a problem with paint coming off after masking.


So what I say to you is only use Tamiya to spray with.......

 

[john i am]

Guess I'm just lucky but never had any problems spraying acrylic primers or paints @20psi (tamiya vallejo alclad humbrol hobby) through my iwata set up (smart jet pro/hr2)


I hope your issues are resolved soon as I can imagine your frustrations......

 

[John Rixon]

It can't help either, that the acrylics I have (Vallejo) definitely vary in viscosity, the greys, pale colours and metallics are all thicker, to the point that I'm never putting the metallics through my airbrush again, we would never get to the bottom of this until we had a database of all the colours that folks use, and which ones are the most problematic! I've partially sorted it now by going through my nozzle cleaning ritual before even shaking the stuff, but my long term solution is to move to another manufacturer, and as I brush paint, for the most part, this won't be such a hardship - being an AFV modeller, I'd settle for the craft paints that Grumpa uses for most of the stuff. But any acrylic that goes into my airbrush is blown through a 0.4 nozzle now,


One has to laugh (or cry) at the prospect of having to put a ball bearing in a bottle of paint, and then some flow enhancer plus some extra thinners for some of the colours, before we know it Vallejo will be selling extra pigments, for those moments when we want the colour to be stronger...

 

[John Rixon]

P.s. Stainless Steel does rust, I've seen it, a lot. So think on before chucking a ball into your hard earned little pots of paint!

 

[Richy C]

For acrylics I only use Tamiya , Vallejo model colour and model air and have never had an issue with either but I do add a few drops of Vallejo thinner to the model air , as for Vallejo primer only ever used it once and could not get on with it , now I stick to my old trusted method good old spray can - Halfords normal primer ( not even the plastic one ) and never had a problem .


I use Iwata revolution airbrushes and a Iwata smart jet pro compressor ( not sure compressor make maters though ) for psi 18-20 for Tamiya Vallejo and zero paints and 10-12 psi for alclads , works for me .


Hiroboy who make Zero paints ( sold worldwide ) always put a ball bearing in their paints , so if its good enough for them ! - make your own decision


Richy

 

[John Rixon]

Well your story sounds weird and may be a case of not properly cleaning the airbrush after spraying.
Please don't get offended, just check if you do clean it properly!


I'm using H&S Evolution for already over 3 years with mainly Tamiya and Mr. Hobby Colour paints, but also any other type I feel like including alclads and other metalizers, Valejo, Italeri, Revell etc. I also regularly spray primers like Mr. Surfacer (whole range from 500 to 1500 and in different colours), Tamiya and Alclad primers and microfillers. The only times when I have had similar issues were when I didn't cleaned the airbrush correctly after spraying! Here are few very important points that have to be considered:


1) get airbrush cleaning set of a kind with small brushes and very important - the needle-like metal thing that you clean the nozzle from dried paint. I rarely use this one, but when the airbrush start to act funky, I just clean the nozzle with it and voila.


2) Absolutely no backflushing! Let me say it again - NO BACKFLUSHING! This is the "put your finger in front of the nozzle and press the trigger to make bubles in order to clean it better" thing! Don't do it, never! It pushes the paint and thinner where it is not supposed to be going.


3) If possible, always pull/remove the needle to the front - only possible with some airbrushes that are designed to be like this. For example all H&S are like this, you rmove the nozzle and pull the needle out from the front. Pulling it from the back pulls paint with it, inside the airbrush and around the trigger, preventing proper airflow and clogging the airbrush.


4) When spraying acrylics use 95% alcohol (sold very cheap in the pharmacy. Here 1L is less than 2GBP), when spraying other types of paint (Alclads, Enamels, Lacquers) use more aggressive or dedicated cleaner. I mainly use Mr. Toolcleaner for those, but note that it may damage the o-rings and other rubber/plastic parts of the airbrush if soaked and left for prolonged periods.


How do I clean my airbrush - first I spray one or two cups with Alcohol (or Mr. tool cleaner), then disassemble it. All parts of the nozzle and the cup are soaked within alcohol. I soak a tissue and clean the needle, then I run the needle few times through the brush, every time cleaning with the soaked tissue. Always putting it from the back and pulling through the front, generally until it stops to leave marks of paint on the tissue. Next step is to use the cleaning kit, cleaning with the soaked in alcohol brushes in the airbrush, until there are no marks of paint anywhere. Next with the smallest brush I clean the nozzle, if needed use the needle like metal thing to rub off any dried paint, but don't push it too hard as it may actually damage the nozzle. Assemble the airbrush and spray 2 cups with alcohol, then it is ready. Please note that I use Mr. toolcleaner very sparingly, just the first clear and then if the paint have dried I use it with the small brushes, but if possible, don't soak any plastic/rubber parts in it. I continue to clean with alcohol after that. Never had issues like yours!


Use some one use pipettes (bought super cheap from the pharmacy) to put paint from the jar to the airbrush, don't pour it directly as some dried paint from the end of teh jar may get into the paint and clog the nozzle.


I hope this helps even though my quite bad English.


Best regards,


Sasho

If 95% alcohol is the best thinners for vallejo, how come their dedicated thinner is not this? I think a lot of folks buy the paint, buy the dedicated thinner etc? Tamiya thinner is ideal for their paint, are you saying vallejo's isn't?

 

[BBdave]

P.s. Stainless Steel does rust, I've seen it, a lot. So think on before chucking a ball into your hard earned little pots of paint!

It depends on the grade of SS.


I use Vallejo and don't have many problems apart from my technique and cleaning regime but I can't for the life of me get Tamiya paints to work in the airbrush I have to thin it so much it takes dozens of coats to get any decent coverage. i generally use Halfords primer where I can.


Dave