Panzer & Stug Internal Colours?

[AlexBB]

Hiya Guys,

I am currently preparing to build the Takom 1/16 Stug DW16001 and also the Takom 1/16 Panzer DW16002. I have not built much armour in the past and what I have has been British Churchills or American Shermans.

I have been looking at what paints I will use for the Stug and the Panzer, I have done some investigations but I still have some queries about the internal colours.

I am currently planning on using Lacquer paints from Mr Paint and have selected MRP-033 primer Red (RAL8012) for the lower insides of the hull where would not have been painted the light colour, and MRP-034, 035, 036 & 037 for the Camo external colours and I have these paints ready and waiting to go.

I have been having problems actually identifying what is the Light white / cream colour that was used on the internals of the tanks!

I have been using online references as well as books for camo and German WW2 paint colours. The Panzer World site I guess being the most reputable or recognised site.

https://panzerworld.com/german-armor-camouflage

&

http://www.miniatures.de/camouflage-german-panzer-interior.html


I have only found online refs to the internal colours being Red Oxide Primer and the Elfenbein / Ivory colour which is stated as RAL 1001

I looked at the Mr Paint web site and RAL 1001 is listed as MRP-210 Beige and looks to be a much darker cream colour then Elfenbein (Ivory) so I sent a message to them via the contact page and did get a reply back from Rene Molner which was as below with the following image;

"Hello

There is long repeated false information circulating the internet that interior color was RAL 1001 but in fact it shall be RAL 9001 - see photo.

Unfortunately we do not have 9001 in lacquer line yet. Closest alternative could be MRP-256."




BUT

It is stated on the one website that though the RAL # of 1001 remained the same that the name actually changed and it was originally Elfenbein but then later changed to ‘Beige’.. (see the second link above) this would then be MRP-210 stated as ‘Beige and German WWII AFV’s’ on the product page on the Mr Paint web site.

Rene Molnar from Mr Paint recommended MRP-256 (Clear Doped Linen) as a close alternative to Elfenbein and that to me, if I understand him correctly means that the colour was a lighter colour than the Beige which is now (on modern RAL Cards) identified as RAL 1001

I do not know what is true! and am now very confused!!

If anyone has some other references or guidance you can point me to I would be very grateful?

 

[Tim Marlow]

Sounds like this is right up Bob the Stug‘s street Alex. He’ll probably be along in a minute….very knowledgeable about Stug stuff he is, to the point of obsession

 

[Steve Jones]

Hi Alex.

Its Elfenbein on a red oxide primer. Your main issue will be what is painted Elfenbein, Red Oxide, Black and German Green inside the vehicle. There are plenty of quality internal photos of refurbished German tanks you can use as reference

 

[Ian M]

I would go for the lighter of the two. A Goggle search of German WWII ivory paint shows the early variant as being very pale. More white than any thing with a tiny hint of yellow and brown,

 

[Jakko]

internal photos of refurbished German tanks you can use as reference

Always beware of restored vehicles, though — you have no guarantee that the restorer used the right colours and/or applied them to the right items.

 

[dave]

From different bits I have read, I believe the interiors were painted an ivory white. This maximised Light reflection and made it easier to spot the equipment, which was usually dark colours, in the dark interiors of the vehicle

 

[AlexBB]

Elfenbein, Red Oxide, Black and German Green inside the vehicle.

Hi @Steve Jones , You mention "German Green" is that I presume the "Grey-Green mentioned on the Panzer web site? It does mention that they ceased using that after late 1942 so I won't worry about that for now.

I have found other sites which also state that Elfenbein (the light Ivory colour) was RAL 1001 but Rene Molner from MRP advises this was not the case and it was the Cremeweis RAL9001...

From looking at several online pics the colour does seem to be more white than cream so I will go with the suggestion of using MRP-256 Clear Doped Linen unless anyone has a better suggestion for a suitable lacquer paint?

 

[JR]

Where is he when needed ?

 

[BattleshipBob]

Afternoon all

Sorry for being late poking my nose in! Julie's started her radiotherapy and the side effects are kicking in, so keeping a close eye on her. At least her hair is safe.

I am NO expert but a sad case of limited info

In the early War years, StuGs had Elfenbein upper works and poss paint no RAL 7009 grey green as correctly stated by Steve. There is a factory photo of a Ausf E where the gunner and loader hatches are open, you can clearly see the inside of the hatches is almost white in colour ( no doubt the photo )

Virtually everything was painted on the lower hull in the grey green colour, floor, levers, supports, torsion bars etc and including equipment supplied to the factory such as gearboxes and final drives from outside companies.

About late 1942 the use of grey green was stopped and the factories told to leave lower hull in red oxide primer unpainted. However there is evidence that some later StuG had grey green gearboxes these may well have been stockpiled stock or reconditioned units at the suppliers.

Jakko is right to point out restores StuG in many cases not 100% accurate

If this is wrong, please forgive me!

 

[Jakko]

restores StuG in many cases not 100% accurate

You can extend that to most restored vehicles. This is understandable, but it’s also something to keep in mind as a modeller. (I think it was Mike Starmer who commented somewhere that he noticed some of Bovington’s British tanks being repainted in completely wrong colours. When he asked about it, the answer he got was that this was paint they got in some hardware store … This at the museum that has probably the most extensive archive of original documentation on how they should be painted )

 

[KarlW]

You can extend that to most restored vehicles. This is understandable, but it’s also something to keep in mind as a modeller. (I think it was Mike Starmer who commented somewhere that he noticed some of Bovington’s British tanks being repainted in completely wrong colours. When he asked about it, the answer he got was that this was paint they got in some hardware store … This at the museum that has probably the most extensive archive of original documentation on how they should be painted )

Agreed, never trust a museum piece or colourised photo for colour matching.
Museums where just using what they could get that was close, and they still do, though I would like to think privately owned and restored vehicles would be better a lot would depend on the source materials being used.
Then there's the question of paint quality and batches, I recently discovered RAL has no tolerance levels built in, that is there is nothing to say you've deviated too far away from the colour in question, and it takes an expert to decide if you have. This would obvously lead to differing manufacturers interpreting the RAL swatches differently, I would imagine the same would of been true for RLM.

 

[Tim Marlow]

Then there's the question of paint quality and batches, I recently discovered RAL has no tolerance levels built in, that is there is nothing to say you've deviated too far away from the colour in question, and it takes an expert to decide if you have. This would obvously lead to differing manufacturers interpreting the RAL swatches differently, I would imagine the same would of been true for RLM.

As true now as it was during war time. During manufacture any paint batch would have been mixed against a standard formula, and then checked by an experienced eye, using a wet sample against a dry standard. There simply was no other way to do this until the late nineteen eighties, when computerised colour matching was developed.
Find a manufacturer that makes the colour you want in a shade that matches your expectation and spray (or brush) away. No one can say you are wrong because there would be visible variation between batches of paint used in the day.

 

[AlexBB]

@Bobthestug & @Steve Jones my apologies for the delay in coming back to this thread.

I have been trying and struggling to find the 'German Green' that Steve mentioned and that Bobthestug advised may be RAL 7009 Grey Green but have been having a few problems!

In the RC Real Colors series AK list RC053 Graugrun - Grey Green but list this as RAL 7008.
They also list RC054 Hellgrau - Light Grey and list this as RAL 7009

MRP list a RAL 7008 - MRP-211 but call this Khaki Grey, MRP do not list a RAL 7009.

Lifecolor do an Axis tank interiors set CS22 this has;
UA 234 - RAL 5012 German Lichblau (light blue) which it says is for the Mechanical gears
&
UA 233 - RAL 7009 German Graugrun (Grey Green) which it says is for the floor / combat / camera!! - This Grey Green is way way lighter than RC053 and nothing like RC054 and totally different to MRP211..

Very confused and beginning to think these paint manufacturers just 'make up' what they think the colours are!!

Any pointers would be very gratefully received?

I have had great difficulty finding any 'colour' images online of the inside of German tanks / stugs and now not sure if the gearboxes were a light blue and not the grey green!

 

[Tim Marlow]

Yer actual RAL 7009 swatch can be seen here, but be aware that monitor and reproduction variations mean you won’t see the exact colour….

RAL colour chart UK | shades and swatches

ral-colours.co.uk

 

[Ian M]

I would say if it is off white, ivory, cream or grey white, no one will be none the wiser.
By the time that oil, grime, soot, smoke and blood has had at it you're not going to see which colour white is underneath it all.

 

[AlexBB]

Hi @Ian M Thank you for your info but I am as mentioned above now OK for the White / Cream colour and will be using MRP-256 Clear doped linen as advised by Rene Molner.

My problems still relate to the German Grey-Green colour, if you see my post on Friday there is clear discrepancies between what certain paint manufacturers state for this colour and also the RAL 5012 German Lichblau which Lifecolor say is for the mechanical gears has thrown another colour into the mix which I have not found in any other internal colour references!!

I know very little about German armour and this is a big learning curve for me.

 

[Ian M]

Chances of finding a true colour photo of the inside of a German Tank (Or Allied for that matter) is = 0
Anything you find will either be from a hand coloured image or a modern restored subject.
I doubt very much that the manufacturers of paint just make it up.
RAL 7008 is Khaki RAL 7009 is green grey.
I know NOTHING about German Army colours other than what can be found and deduced.
The RAL 7000 Series are all the grey tones. There are 38 of them.
This site: https://www.paintcolourchart.com/ral-colors/classic/7000-serie.html offers a good oversight of them. A good relative comparison but not a definitive. Unless you have a calibrated screen, which is almost impossible with a LED screen as the colour is affected by viewing angle!

So going back to the correct colour to use.
Floors. a light grey covered in oil/soot and mud.
Walls an off white covered in oil/soot/grease and the such.

 

[Tim Marlow]

Don’t over think this Alex. Colour matching in the 1940s was pretty much suck it and see. In 1940s Germany that would be even more true. If two batches of paint were identical that would be more by luck than judgement.

Stugman Bob’s advice is sound as well. Despite his disclaimer, he’s forgotten more about Stugs than most of us ever learn. The Stug G (that’s the kit subject i believe) came out late 1942, around the time grey green was dropped for the lower hull. I would personally go with a red oxide lower hull with grey green gearboxes etc to give a bit of visual interest, and don’t fret to much about exact colour matching. That way lies madness. .

 

[BattleshipBob]

Don’t over think this Alex. Colour matching in the 1940s was pretty much suck it and see. In 1940s Germany that would be even more true. If two batches of paint were identical that would be more by luck than judgement.

Stugman Bob’s advice is sound as well. Despite his disclaimer, he’s forgotten more about Stugs than most of us ever learn. The Stug G (that’s the kit subject i believe) came out late 1942, around the time grey green was dropped for the lower hull. I would personally go with a red oxide lower hull with grey green gearboxes etc to give a bit of visual interest, and don’t fret to much about exact colour matching. That way lies madness. .

To kind Tim ( do u take cash)

Sound advice from Tim. To confuse matters like all armour StuG' were often returned to Germany for repair/overhaul. During this time the latest changes etc were fitted which causes big problems with identifying vehicles. Factories tended to use new/old stock inc paint!

As Tim says the G was introduced Dec 43, the first batch were actually Ausf F modified to the G standard. The 1/16 kit is not that early.

I am not overly worried about specific colours/shades as it's minefield, I do not take part in discussions on other sites as it far too often gets nasty, childish and downright rude. Not for me. Never heard of a light blue gearbox?? As Ian says the chance of a clear colour interior photo is a big fat no, sadly. Plenty of B/W but no good for checking colours etc.

I personally would stick to oxide red.

 

[Jakko]

This site: https://www.paintcolourchart.com/ral-colors/classic/7000-serie.html offers a good oversight of them.

Beware, though, that wartime RAL colours may not match their current numbers, and that some RAL colours have been deleted — including several that German AFVs were painted in.