Badder's hurricane ?

[tr1ckey66]

Hi Alan

My next project is a pair of PCM hurris, one of which will be Bader's kite. My BoB project wouldn't really be complete without the guy, although reading the accounts of people who have met him, or worked with him he sounds a pretty unlikeable character. Still, those under his command do say he was an inspirational leader and an exceptional pilot. And obviously to overcome the difficulties he faced after the accident is nothing short of a miracle, a true story of complete and utter determination.

My other Hurricane will either be of 32 sqn which was based at Biggin during the early part of the battle and happens to be very close to where I live, or a tribute to 25% or so non-British pilots who fought for the free world and this country during the battle and will probably be from a Polish squadron.

I wish you all the best with the hunt for the Bader decals for your 1/48 project and look forward to the seeing another great model.

All the best

Paul

 

[stona]

Opinions of Bader from other pilots.

'Douglas Bader was completely wrong on tactics at the time. He was very brave but he'd been out of the air force for ten years. He lagged completely behind in modern concepts. All he could think of, as far as I could see, was the old World War I flying circuses, which had nothing to do with what we were up against in the Battle of Britain.'

'I remember at least one occasion when there were no hostile plots on the table and yet some of our chaps were shot down. It was, therefore, very important for a fighter leader to obey the controller's instructions, so that, down in the hole, he would know exactly where the leader was. If, like Douglas [bader] , you went darting about all over the place, it upset the whole plotting table.'

Squadron Leader (later A.C.M.) Harry Broadhurst.

'Douglas Bader wanted control by Fighter Command, by Dowding himself in the last resort. But as Commander in Chief, Dowding was far to preoccupied with strategic problems to follow the battle blow by blow. He left that to his Group Commanders. "Bader's suggestion beats the band" was Park's subsequent comment. "It would have been impossible for one controller to handle fifty squadrons".

Group Captain Peter Townsend.

'My own later experience on both offensive and defensive operations confirmed that two squadrons of fighters was the ideal number to lead in the air'

Wing Commander 'Johnnie' Johnson

The above reflect Bader's fundamental lack of understanding of how the modern (in 1940) Fighter Command system worked. A junior squadron leader, out of the air force for many years presumed to know better than the very men who had designed the system. Park had been involved in Fighter Command's predecessor (Air Defence of Great Britain) since 1926.

Nobody, then or now, doubts Bader's courage or will power, he was also a dynamic and tireless leader though not to everyone's taste. Perhaps the most damning indictment of his leadership was recorded by Kenneth Cross, another who would finish his RAF career as an A.C.M.

"Later when some of the pilots reached us in the desert we learned of the feelings in the wings at this time. Billy Burton, for example, who commanded 616 Squadron in Bader's wing at Tangmere, maintained that by the time Bader was shot down in August 1941, the Wing was in a state of mutiny bought on by his reckless leading in an effort to increase his own score."

Bader is like Marmite. You can take the sugar coated "Reach for the Sky" version or a more measured historical appraisal of the man and his career. He was a bad influence on Leigh-Mallory and 12 Group and his influence far outweighed both his rank and experience. That baleful influence helped exert pressure at the Air Ministry leading to the removal of Dowding and Park. Dowding may have been ready to go and was, with hindsight, probably fortunate to leave when he did. Not so Park.

Cheers

Steve

 

[tr1ckey66]

Bader is like Marmite. You can take the sugar coated "Reach for the Sky" version or a more measured historical appraisal of the man and his career.

I tend to agree Steve. I think the only reason he's going in the BoB collection is because of the misguided 'Big Wing' tactics which are as much a part of the BoB story as the folly of bombing London by the Luftwaffe. As a man I find the stories about his personality really off-putting. To me he's rather like Patton, another individual who (in my opinion) fought the war for his own glorification. There are many other contenders who drop into this category and I don't mean to single out individuals. It's the unassuming heroes that went about their business with as much bravery but without the ego, and had the humility to listen to other's opinions that get my admiration.

In fact the more I think about it the more I want to forget the Bader kite and do the 32sqn and Polish aircraft!

What can't be denied is Bader's determination and single minded ness which obviously both served as both a positive and negative part of his personality.

I think he's still going in though - flaws and all!

Cheers

Paul

 

[stona]

I think you should definitely keep him in

The blame for the failure of 'Big Wing' operations can't be laid primarily at the door of a junior officer like Bader. The most blame lies with Leigh-Mallory who not only encouraged Bader but failed to ensure that Wing Commander Woodhall, the Duxford controller, carried out his duties in accordance with Fighter Command policies.

Some blame must also lie with Dowding who failed to understand the antipathy which developed between Park and Leigh-Mallory (11 and 12 Groups) and failed to force Leigh-Mallory and his subordinate officers (like Woodhall and Bader) to toe the line.

the time of the 'infamous conference' at the Air Ministry on 17th October 1940 the die was cast. It was chaired by Sholto-Douglas and Leigh-Mallory brought along Bader. As a Squadron Leader he was by far the most junior officer present and his attendance startled Dowding amongst others. Dowding and Park could have brought an operational pilot of their own to the conference to refute the wild assertions made by Bader (and Leigh-Mallory) but never thought to do so. Douglas, who thought that Bader had found the secret to success, didn't suggest that they might like to.

With hindsight it looks a lot like Douglas set up the conference with the intention of discrediting Dowding and by inference, Park. Both men were certainly damaged as a result.

We seem to have got a long way from model building! Good luck with your PCM Hurricanes. It isn't the most straight forward kit, but it builds into a good looking Hurricane

Cheers

Steve

 

[Alan 45]

Some great stuff there Steve and similar to what I've been reading about him , I think most of the stuff about him is propaganda , to have a fighter ace with tin legs is a powerful thing to sell to the public and would be seen as a real hero

I have no doubt he was a determined and single minded person but the truth is it appears he wasn't the person portrayed certainly not the character portrayed in the film reach for the sky

Thanks for the insights Steve

 

[tr1ckey66]

The blame for the failure of 'Big Wing' operations can't be laid primarily at the door of a junior officer like Bader.

I realise Bader is not solely culpable nor the loudest advocate of 'Big Wing' but I don't think a model of Leigh-Mallory would be as interesting!

And you're right we are steering way off the modelling path!!! All good stuff though and great background to the story.

Still, the other star in all this is of course the Hurricane and I'm really looking forward to tackling this RAF workhorse as I'm sure Alan is.

Should be starting next week.

Cheers

P

 

[stona]

The Dowding/Park team have always been somewhat personal heroes of mine and I have done quite a bit of research into the circumstances surrounding their removal from Fighter Command after the BoB.

I (or rather my brother who won't return it ) have a copy of 'Fight for the Sky', Bader's so called autobiography, signed by the man himself. It is yet another of his successful self promotional exercises and, politely, liberal with the truth.

I believe that the Leigh-Mallory/Sholto-Douglas/Bader ascendancy in wing tactics as the RAF 'leaned forward' into France after the BoB led directly to the fruitless deaths of many RAF pilots and that is a pretty dire accusation.

Steve

 

[Andy Mac]

Superscale used to do a 1/48 decal set which included Bader's Hurricane (Superscale 48-383) but they're now out of print.

The only thing to do is keep scanning ebay, and one day I'm sure they'll pop up.

 

[Alan 45]

Thanks Andy , I've been told the italieri kit has the letters I need it just needs chopping and fitting , I have one on the way from the shop so I'll be able to check when it comes

If not I'll check out decals of all British fights from WWII to get them I only need LE and D it can't be that hard to get those letters

 

[tr1ckey66]

Hi Alan

Hannants do full sets of code letters (Extra Decal) in a variety of sizes in most scales. I'm sure that they will have the size of letters you want. I may even have some in the stash myself. If I have them I'd be glad to send them on.

I'll take a look.

Cheers

P

 

[Alan 45]

Hi AlanHannants do full sets of code letters (Extra Decal) in a variety of sizes in most scales. I'm sure that they will have the size of letters you want. I may even have some in the stash myself. If I have them I'd be glad to send them on.

I'll take a look.

Cheers

P

Thanks Paul that's nice of you to offer

I should get the kit on Monday I was hopping for today but posty must have left it on the side :mad: So if they are not in the kit I'll pm you and we can talk about a price :D

Thank you so much for the offer

 

[tr1ckey66]

Hi Alan

I've measured the code letters off the PCM Hurricane and worked out that the code letters are 28" on the real aircraft, I'm not sure if this is a regulation size but that's what they work out at when measuring the decals. Please bear in mind that all of the decal options in the PCM kit have codes of differing heights and I'm thinking that in 1940 standardisation may have been a 'nice idea' but in practice was still implemented by individuals with their own take on typography! (Might need verification on this thought though by someone with a little more knowledge than me! )

I'm afraid I don't have those size of codes in 1/48 I have only a variety of 15, 16 and 18" letters in both Med Sea Grey and Sky.

Sorry, I tried

 

[stona]

Hi AlanI've measured the code letters off the PCM Hurricane and worked out that the code letters are 28" on the real aircraft, I'm not sure if this is a regulation size but that's what they work out at when measuring the decals. Please bear in mind that all of the decal options in the PCM kit have codes of differing heights and I'm thinking that in 1940 standardisation may have been a 'nice idea' but in practice was still implemented by individuals with their own take on typography! (Might need verification on this thought though by someone with a little more knowledge than me! )

You are correct to say that there was much variation!

The decision to mark all RAF aircraft with a system of code letters was taken after the 1938 Munich crisis. The letters were to be applied in Medium Sea Grey paint and be 48" high and applied with 6" wide strokes. There was no standard font.

It is obvious that a 48" tall letter is too big for the RAF's single engine fighters, particularly the Spitfire with its slim fuselage boom. You will see early attempts to squeeze these over sized markings on whilst trying not to impinge on the national markings (roundels) as these were not to be over painted. 32 Squadron even ignored this with the G or Z of its code (depending on which side) well and truly over the roundel !

Most Spitfires and Hurricanes seem eventually to have ended up with codes about 30" tall, which coincides nicely with your calculation. The only way of making an accurate estimate is from a photograph of your intended subject, or at least one of its squadron mates.

Incidentally at the same time the rules for squadron badges (as approved by the King) changed. They could still be carried but now had to be removable "at short notice" leaving no visible trace. This, like the new code system, was for reasons of security.

For the same reason all squadrons were supposed to have their squadron code changed at the out break of the war. Inevitably some did not leading to all sorts of fun and games. For example the letters QJ were allocated to 616 Squadron pre-war. 92 Squadron was allocated GR. At the beginning of the war 92's codes were changed from GR to QJ (though they were still carrying the old code over Dunkirk). 616's codes changed from QJ to YQ. 92 might have been tardy in adopting its new QJ code but 616 didn't adopt its new YQ code until mid 1941. The result was two squadrons, both equipped with Spitfires, flying around with the same code letters for about a year. That would have confused the Germans!

Cheers

Steve

 

[Alan 45]

No problems Paul thanks for the offer I appreciate it

I always wondered why the lettering on fighters didn't look the same now I know thanks Steve for your info it's great to know if I ever want to go a bit pedantic on a build

 

[tr1ckey66]

Hi Alan

Here's a link to the 30" codes

http://www.hannants.co.uk/product/X48022

I'm assuming you have the sqn badge 'Hitler's ass kicking'?

Steve, great background info as always and a clear explanation of a the confusing anomalies to the system. I know 32 sqn has absolutely huge codes (they can be seen on the gate guardian Hurricane at Biggin - probably an aircraft I will model), I also knew that 92 squadron shared the same codes as 616. 92 sqn was also based at Biggin (92 sqn being Geoffrey 'First Light' Wellum's sqn). In fact 32 and 92 sqn aircraft form the gate guardian pair at Biggin with Wellum's Spitfire accompanying the 32 sqn Hurricane.

I'm sorry to morph this thread Alan and I truly do hope you sort your code letter problem but this sort of info is just fascinating to me.

Cheers

Paul

 

[Alan 45]

Cheers Paul that's very useful and don't worry about the thread I'm sure it's been a big help to many it certainly has me

I've been told that the hitler ass kicking decal is in the kit although only one of them

 

[stona]

I've been told that the hitler ass kicking decal is in the kit although only one of them

I don't think anyone really knows for sure whether the art work was applied to both sides or not. I formed the opinion (and that's all it is) that it most likely was. I don't think there is a right or wrong here

Cheers

Steve

 

[Alan 45]

I don't think anyone really knows for sure whether the art work was applied to both sides or not. I formed the opinion (and that's all it is) that it most likely was. I don't think there is a right or wrong here Cheers

Steve

Thanks for that Steve I'd have thought it would be on both sides as many aircraft with similar signs were but I don't think it's really important

Thanks for all the info on this it's been a great read and a real insight into the man and his aircraft

 

[Laurie]

Just got in on this.

First I do not have any qualms about all the history introduced within a model article. In fact I welcome every bit of inf. It brings the model to life otherwise it is just a nice looking thing with no background.

On the Bader thing and having read so many books both auto and biographical plus documented I see Bader as an obssesed ego seeking man. It is a pity as he was a man who obviously loved his country.

Unfortunately Douglas Bader ruined the reputations of Park and Dowding. But more depressing is that Bader had Leigh Mallory as his commander a man who was swayed by the wind and consequently as any one without a mind of his own not a decisive decision maker. Bader took every opportunity to exploit this weakness as it was.

Worse Leigh Mallory became part of the Normandy landing team and did not stand his corner and for which the allies suffered. If only Park had been there a decisive man if ever there was.

Laurie

 

[stona]

Unfortunately Douglas Bader ruined the reputations of Park and Dowding.

Laurie

Not Bader Laurie. He was certainly used by much more senior officers (and politicians) in the conniving do remove Dowding and hence Park but he was a mere Squadron Leader in 1940 and didn't have that kind of authority.

There were other officers more or less openly disloyal to Dowding. Leigh-Mallory was rewarded for his allegiance to Sholto-Douglas and disloyalty to Dowding. Flight Lieutenant Sir Peter MacDonald MP, adjutant of 242 Squadron, abused his parliamentary position to lobby Churchill in order to undermine Dowding's authority. Wing Commander Kingston-McCloughry anonymously wrote a scurrilous document against Dowding which was circulated throughout Government by Irene Ward MP amongst others. She has been described as 'the prototype of the critic whose criticism becomes shriller with ignorance'.

At the Air Ministry Dowding was opposed by Sir Archibald Sinclair. Fatally he was on the wrong side of Lord Trenchard who, with the prompting of Sir Geoffrey Salmond lobbied Churchill with poisonous effect. Even Sir William Freeman (Portal's right hand man) realised too late the injustice being done to Dowding. Harold Balfour MP, Under Secretary of State is culpable by his inaction. He failed to even attempt to modify Sinclair and Portal's hostility to Dowding.

Bader was in this camp and his criticism of Dowding's conduct of the battle, behind his back, does amount to disloyalty, but Dowding was ousted by men far above his rank and pay grade. Sholto-Douglas, Sinclair and Salmond were the effective ring leaders. They made good use of their juniors, like Leigh-Mallory and Bader, and influenced their seniors like Trenchard and, ultimately, Churchill.

Both Dowding and Park's reputations may have been damaged by the events of late 1940 but they are secure today. I bet nearly every member of this forum would know both their names, but how many of the others above would they know? Sinclair? Salmond? Freeman? Irene Ward MP? even Balfour?

Apologies again for the diversion! I've spent a lot of time reading and investigating precisely this subject

Cheers

Steve