Badder's hurricane ?

[Laurie]

No disrespect but no in my mind Bader Steve. Not doubting for one moment what you say.

But if Bader had not been there then he could not have used Leigh Mallory neither could Leigh Mallory have use Bader. Bader had a strong personality and Leigh Mallory a weak one.

Without speculation no one knows what the result would have been. Cancel the two out and all those who were after Dowding would have had to find another catalyst. But would they ?

Interesting to speculate if Dowding had got it wrong and. Parks and Leigh Mallory had had their groups reversed. How would Parks have controlled Bader perhaps well and Bader would have done as he should have been instructed.. The master wagging the tail!

Fortunately Dowding got it right. But as in Shakespeariana terms perhaps signed his own demise.

Laurie

 

[stona]

Ultimately the operational consideration that did for Dowding was his inability to deal with the Luftwaffe by night. It is important to say that given the state of air interception (AI) and ground control interception (GCI) radar at the time nobody else could have in any case.

The Big Wing controversy was used to discredit Dowding but it was just one of a series of manoeuvres used to oust him. Bader was used, and was important, in this one episode of the series.

The reasons for Dowding's removal are many and varied. Which carried more weight is a subject on which books have been written.

1. He was 58 years old.

2. He had been AOC Fighter Command for four years and needed a rest. Four years WAS a long time.

3. His relations with the Air Ministry had been difficult since 1937.

4. He failed to resolve the 'Big Wing' controversy.

5. There was an urgent need for a response to the night time bombing and Dowding failed to grasp this.

6. There was a need to enter offensive operations over the Continent and Dowding was not the man for this job.

7. Dowding was not a good co-operator and had allowed the serious and dangerous deterioration in relations between two of his Group commanders.

8. Churchill and Beaverbrook came to appreciate that a new man was needed.

I don't agree with all those points but they remain nonetheless valid. They are reasons suggested by a variety of authors (Ray, Haslam, Richards, Cox, Orange et alter).

Cheers

Steve

 

[Laurie]

My opinion Steve is that Churchill kept coming up against a brick and just did not like brick walls.

Unlike Montgomery he did not have a friend in the camp. Ie Brook.

Very interesting subject history and the speculation of history.

Laurie

 

[stona]

My opinion Steve is that Churchill kept coming up against a brick and just did not like brick walls.Laurie

Churchill did support Dowding up to a point. I agree that Churchill didn't like brick walls

I edited above to remove the reference to health as that applied more to Park than Dowding.

Cheers

Steve

 

[flyjoe180]

Interestingly Bader in later years mentioned “The awesome responsibility for this country’s survival rested squarely on Keith Park’s shoulders. British military history of this century has been enriched with the names of great fighting men from New Zealand, of all ranks and in every one of our services. Keith Park's name is carved into history alongside those of his peers"

What is often forgotten in the midst of the controversy surrounding the treatment of Dowding and Park after the Battle Of Britain, is that Park yet again went on to effectively deny and defeat the Luftwaffe in the Mediterranean Theatre, particularly during the Malta Campaign. Park succeeded Sholto Douglas as Commander Middle East Command in 1944, and was made Allied Air Comander South East Asia in 1945. A Spitfire he donated to the Auckland War Memorial Museum is still there along with his dress uniform.

View attachment 82565

 

[john i am]

Looking forward to more on your Bader/ Hurricane tribute Alan good look with the decals lots of info submitted on Bader in this thread seems that although he was a very brave skilful pilot he was a terrible leader and team player not the all round hero I previously thought he was a maverick perhaps from what I have read here .But for me regardless of his ego a man with no legs who climbs back into a plane when pilots were very limited in numbers in the country's hour of need then he should be respected faults warts and all along with all the other unsung men and women who served the Royal Airforce

 

[stona]

Interestingly Bader in later years mentioned “The awesome responsibility for this country’s survival rested squarely on Keith Park’s shoulders. British military history of this century has been enriched with the names of great fighting men from New Zealand, of all ranks and in every one of our services. Keith Park's name is carved into history alongside those of his peers"

It's from the address given on 12th September 1975 at a memorial service for Park at the church of St Clement Dane in London. It was organised by the Battle of Britain Fighter Association. Bader was asked to give the address. We might think it would have been more appropriate for one of Park's old friends from 11 Group to make the address, maybe a fellow countryman like Alan Deere. The thought seems to have crossed Bader's mind too, as he was initially reluctant to make the address, until advised that it was the unanimous wish of the association that he do so.

The Battle of Britain, said Bader,

....was controlled, directed and brought to a successful conclusion by the man whose memory we honour today. The awesome responsibility of this country's survival rested squarely on Keith Park's shoulders. Had he failed, Stuffy Dowding's foresight, determination and achievement would have counted for nought...... This is no sad occasion. Rather it is a time during which we can let our memories drift back to those halcyon days of 1940 when we fought together in English skies under the determined of that great New Zealander we are remembering now....... Keith Park was one of us. We all shared the great experience. That is what we remember today. British military history of this century has been enriched with the names of great fighting men from New Zealand, of all ranks and in every one of our fighting services. Keith Park's name is carved into that history alongside those of his peers.

It is a noble tribute to Park and speaks volumes also for Bader. The axe had been buried. Whatever we may now think about his behaviour in 1940, he did the right thing in 1975.

Bader was not really a bad guy, more a fall guy. He had outdated ideas about fighter tactics and did not understand how the modern system designed by Park, Dowding and others worked. He should have been and could have been, brought into line by his commanding officers. He was only a Squadron Leader. Unfortunately he had the ear of Leigh-Mallory and he, along with other far more senior officers, used Bader for their own ends. In some ways Bader was as much a victim of the intrigue as he was a conspirator.

Cheers

Steve

 

[Alan 45]

Well my hurry came this morning and YES ! Panick over all decals for Bader's aircraft are in the kit and I have a little pilot with similar hair style that I can pass off as Bader so happy times

This won't be a day job though there are to many parts and I shall get another one of these due to it having the engin showing this one will be just the aircraft with Bader to go with Gallands messy

So Montrose in on hold now as I don't want to ruin that build by rushing it to get it finished

Just one question chaps the ventral colour was it the pail green or the sky grey I have both but just kneed to know as the colour is named different for different kit makers

Thanks for all the info chaps it's been very enlightening

 

[stona]

Alan, I'm not sure what you mean by 'ventral colour'. If you mean the underside then the colour would be 'Sky' which is the pale green colour.

It was a new colour in June 1940 and there was much confusion about what units were supposed to apply. The following signal was supposed to clarify.



The 'Type S' simply refers to the smooth finish and has nothing to do with the colour (Sky).

Cheers

Steve

 

[Alan 45]

Cheers Steve that's a big help

Ventral is the underside , dorsal on top , port is left side and starboard is right side