Me 109 4/7 collours

[T. van Vuuren]

Hi all

Hope you lads can shed some light on the "typical" collours and collour schemes that would be on a ME-109 4/7 (what ever the 4/7 means?)

The Tamiya box art shows the "tropical" mottle collours of JG-27(I rather like that one) and a normal splinter cammo on the wings/tail with an extremely fine green mottle on the fuse of Jg2(Maj. Helmut Wick)

It is so fine and closely spaced I have no idea on how to actually do it, so I recon that one is out.

Then there is one of JG26 in what seems to be the standard "blitz" collours with larger mottle on the side.

Were the splinter camo's edges a hard or a soft edge? What would be the effect of the mottle on the Trop JG 27 plane? It looks like it might have been painted on jusing some form of mask as the edges seem harder than on the blitz plane.

Any hepl and pix welcome.

Thanx

Theuns

 

[stona]

Right then Theuns. Firstly in the context of all the aircraft you describe the 4/7 is the dash numbers of the E series (Emils) as in Bf109E-4 or Bf109E-7.

It's virtually impossible to give "typical" colours I'm afraid. I can tell you how these aircraft came out of the factory at a particular time period but once they got to units the schemes were adjusted to a lesser or greater degree. We have a pretty good idea what different units tended to do but there is much variation.

The standard scheme in the European theatre was an upper surface splinter scheme of RLM 71 and RLM 02 over a lower surface of RLM 65. The splinter was hard edged.

Wick's machine (which you don't fancy) is well known and had a heavily stippled mottle,probably applied with stiff brushes which is very hard to replicate on a model.

You didn't say which JG26 machine you were considering. This unit was a relatively late adopter of the mottle and generally went for a fairly standard overspray of the camouflage colours. I think the kit option is for Munchenburg's machine when they were in Sicily. If it is it should have a pennant on the radio mast.

The JG27 option is probably Werner Schroer's aircraft. He's usually assigned to "Black 8" which is debateable. There is a great colour picture of this machine which I can dig out for you if you go for this one. There are good pictures both colour and B+W of other aircraft from this unit which I also have.The mottle is definitely sprayed free hand but the job was done very carefully and skillfully. For example the mottle extends onto the canopy framing so the canopy must have been carefully masked.

These aircraft had lower surfaces in RLM 78 and upper surfaces in RLM 79. I do the mottle in RLM 80 but there is a distinct possibility that it was not an RLM colour at all but rather an Italian paint whose name I've forgotten. It was dark green anyway!

Let me know what you decide.

Cheers

Steve

 

[T. van Vuuren]

As usual Steve....a wealth of info!

The JG 26 plane is of the red hearts and has the side # ofwhite 12.

The Desert 109 I like is of JG27 side # of black with red outline 8 in North Africa

The only way I can see to do the mottle on either would be to first do the darker mottle collour and then do the other lighter collours over the blue tack blobs. Not sure if it would work though..........

I have seen some reviews on this kit and in almost all of them the fuselarge joint pannels are heavily "weathered" with a wash. I recall you saying they were closed with a putty of sorts????

Theuns

 

[stona]

Hi again Theuns.

First I've edited my post above as the green I use for the tropical mottle is RLM 80 not 71. My bad,sorry if I've caused any confusion.

I'll check "White 12" as I can't remember if that's the one I'm thinking of.

I'm not sure that the early Emils were puttied. They were very well made,allied intelligence reports often comment on the build quality. Many modellers wash the panel lines and give the fuselage a segmented look. This may or may not improve a model,that's up to the individual modeller,but generally the real aircraft did not look like this. I can only speak from my own experience of looking at literally hundreds of photographs.

Here are some Es on the production line.

And here's one having the surface finish maintained.

Obviously only two pictures,but you get the idea!

Here's a couple from JG27 in the short lived tropical mottle,including one of your options.

You can make your own mind up as to how dirty they are.

Cheers

Steve

Edit. "White 12" is the aircraft I was thinking of but I've only found a partial photo....so far.

 

[T. van Vuuren]

Cool pix Steve!

Interesting to see the airframes in the facory having the crosses on and not the rest of the cammo yet. Maybe they did this to save some time in masking it off. I know the swiss did the same thing on their hunters. They first sprayed a basecoat of white and then masked off the serial # and over sprayed the rest of the cammo.Makes for less masking.

I am realy starting to like the desert mottle now!!

Have you or anyone done this with the bluetack technique before? any tips for a newby to this painting???

Just as a matter of interest. how did the German aircraft fare in the hot and dusty conditions compared to the RAF/USAAF? I know the RAF had to fit the Volks filters to save the engines and i could only assume that the close tollerances of german engineering had a hard time there.

I can only imagine what my grandfather would say (had he been alive) to see me with a "Jerry" plane in African collours! He was a RAF/SAAF mechanick up north, and a Spit or Hurri would be much more civilized !!!! LOL

Theuns

 

[stona]

The Luftwaffe suffered high rates of attrition in the conditions of North Africa. The Bf109E did have a tropical filter fitted,as did later Fs and Gs. It was cleverer than the British solution as it's frontal area is no greater than the standard intake. There was no drag penalty. Also it could be opened and shut. On the ground or at low level,in the dust and sand,the air intake was closed so that air was taken in through the filter medium. Once clear of the hazard the intake was opened and air flowed directly into the engine. This means that the filter wasn't strangling the engine. It was all operated by a handle in the cockpit.

Cheers

Steve

Talking about Luftwaffe problems, JG27 was one of the worst for over claiming. At least one group of pilots were actively conniving together to cheat!

 

[T. van Vuuren]

War is bad enough, but cheating! That's where I draw the line LOL!!!

Hopingto start on the Emil next week.Will post some pix of the build.

Am I correct in assuming that the wing slats were coupled in some way to the flaps? In the manual they say the slats are down if the flaps are down.

This would then leave an area under the slat that would not show the mottle cammo, just the basecoat of the cammo.Am I correct???

Theuns

 

[stona]

The leading edge slats were completely independent of all other surfaces and each other. They had a mechanism which caused them to deploy automatically at low airspeeds. As the flaps would only normally be deployed at low airspeeds it is likely that the slats would also deploy but they are not linked so it is possible for one to be up and the other down. They would usually remain deployed whilst taxying as well but it was common practice for ground crew to push them back up on parked aircraft to minimise the chances of foreign objects getting in to the mechanism.This means you can display them either way. If the slats are down the area at the leading edge of the wing revealed would usually be in RLM 02 (primer).

The AILERONS are connected to the flaps. With flaps up the ailerons droop an insignificant (on a model) 1.2 degrees. With the flaps fully down at 42.5 degrees the ailerons have a significant droop of 11 degrees.

Cheers

Steve

 

[msm2]

Just read your the above post,oops I will have to respray my Tamiya as I have done the wrong colour. Oh what fun....

 

[stona]

Just read your the above post,oops I will have to respray my Tamiya as I have done the wrong colour. Oh what fun....

I did say usually RLM 02. It's an area which rarely shows in photographs,in fact it is most often visible in photographs of crashed aircraft which are not on their wheels,or what were known as "fliegerdenkmal" or flyers monuments. These are aircraft which have nosed over ,usually on landing,and are stuck with their tails in the air. The slats usually fall forward to reveal the area in question. I do know of one image of a tropical F where the area looks to be in the upper camouflage colour.

If you want to go with the more likely RLM 02 it's an easy touch up.

It's dangerous to make unequivocal statements about Luftwaffe painting!!!

Cheers

Steve

 

[msm2]

I had painted the said area in RLM 65,it will not take much time to remask and paint in RLM 02. Cheers Steve. What would be a good book for 109 ref?

 

[stona]

I'm confused now Tony. The area I mean is the section of the leading edge on the wings upper surface that is revealed when the leading edge slats (sometimes referred to as slots for some reason) deploy by rolling forwards and downwards.

The slats are shown here (german "vorflugel")

And here's a detail showing the mechanism.

The inside of the slat would also be painted in RLM 02 primer.

I hope I haven't caused any confusion!

Cheers

Steve

Edit,forgot the book. There really isn't one that covers it. If you specify a particular time period or series I can probably give you a decent reference for that.For technical information I use the original handbooks and parts manuals a lot.

There are some very good websites too. Lynn Ritger's 109 lair here http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/index1024.htm is a good start and it's free!

 

[msm2]

I should have stated the area is behind the slots. You have helped me out and cheers again.

View attachment 24543

View attachment 30926

 

[msm2]

Hi Theuns. Sorry for hijacking your thread for a while. Have a look at this site it may help as well- Falcon's Messerschmitt Bf 109 Hangar

 

[stona]

Cracking paint job there Tony. We are talking about the same area thank heavens! It should be RLM 02 or just possibly the camouflage colour but not the underside colour (RLM 65).

Theuns that's another good online source that Tony has linked to. I'd forgotten about that one so I'll be having a look!

Cheers

Steve

 

[T. van Vuuren]

No hijacks dude, I am glad for all the info!

Steve, the instructions call for the cockpit floor,seat, collomb and instr pannel to be XF-63 German grey. The internal collour for the sides of the fuselarge is a mix of XF-22 RLM Grey (what ever that is) and XF49 Khaki.

Those RLM standards are realy confusing me.Why the different collours.

The inside of the wheelwells are the same mix of 22 and 49. Do you recon they are trying to replicate the primer you are refering to?I will check on the conversion chart what the nearest collour is.

There is a pranged 109 in desert collours here in our war meseum, could be an interesting thing to replicate.Must just find out what model it was. There is no mottle on it, just tan and blue with a white cowl IIRC.

Thanx for all the linx lads.I have started on the "office" and as usual it looks like this is the standard "fall into place" tamiya kit I got it for only about 11 sqidd ,so I am rather pleased with it.

Theuns

 

[T. van Vuuren]

Forgot to add, i am using "ME 109 aces of north Africa and the Med" as my referance.

T

 

[msm2]

XF-22 + XF-49 = RLM 02 which is Vallejo 71044. Will this help.

 

[T. van Vuuren]

Indeed it does, thanx.

I had a look at the humbrol chart and theirs is # 86 wich is a olive (could this be right for the interior sides of the cockpit?????? If the rest of the cockpit is german grey? See what I mean about being confused.

The pix in one of the links does show a green primer inside the wheel wells, but why the green AND the grey in the office? Or am I just reading it wrong? Some of the pix also show an all grey office but with a black instr. pannel:rolleyes:

Theuns

 

[stona]

Hi Theuns. Tony is correct with his identification of RLM 02.

For this period you can safely do all the cockpit interior except the instrument panel,which would be dark grey,in this colour. This includes the seat.

The wheel well,inside of cowlings and undercarriage legs,the undercarriage legs themselves,inside of slats,leading edge behind slats will also all be in RLM 02. It's all the same colour!

I wouldn't call RLM 02 olive. It is a grey/green colour,I'm sure you'll find a chip online to give an idea.

I have to say that the dark blue/grey colour RLM 66 did appear in cockpits much earlier than you will read in many modelling references but without good evidence you should go with RLM 02 on a balance of probabilities. Any Bf109 from and including the F series onwards should have the darker colour.

Any more confusion just let us know!

Cheers

Steve